Even if we’re talking about axiomatic disagreements, rational debate is still useful. Eg, we can still use rationality to help identify which axioms we’re disagreeing with.
Case in point is your abortion example. I think you’ve messed up your lines of cause and effect there. Being anti-abortion either causes or has a common cause with believing that life begins at conception. Being pro-abortion causes or has a common cause with believing that life doesn’t begin at conception.
Let me posit an axiom that causes anti-abortion. Instead of the whole ‘soul’ thing, lets go with “Women deserve to be punished for having sex,” and that ‘life-begins-at-conception’ is just a rationalization. If this were true, anti-abortion should coincide with religiosity (it does) and pro-abortion should coincide with women’s rights (also does). Both axioms correctly fit the existing data. How could we tell the difference… which axiom is the true axiom?
My rationalist shoes say we’d want to identify a differentiation point where these two axioms would cause different results. Have there been any occasions where “reduce number of abortions” and “punish women for having sex” come into conflict? Here’s one. Turns out free access to birth control slashes the abortion rate. Less punishing women, less abortions. Cool, we’ve identified a point of differentiation.
As you note, we’ve still got an axiomatic disagreement. In order to change the opposing side’s mind we still need to shift their axiom. However, rationality has let the pro-abortion side aim their rhetorical firepower at the correct target. Instead of talking about the neural activity of fetuses, they can start making people feel more comfortable and accepting of sex. Once they’re correctly targeting the true axiom, they’ll have a lot more luck in shifting the opposing side’s position.
Instead of the whole ‘soul’ thing, lets go with “Women deserve to be punished for having sex,” and that ‘life-begins-at-conception’ is just a rationalization.
Every pro-lifer I’ve ever met has shared two characteristics: they don’t think women who have abortions should go to jail, and they think that women who have abortions are worse off than women who choose to give birth. That doesn’t fit with the pregnancy-as-punishment theory.
(It does however, expose another type of misogyny: they refuse to believe a mature woman in a sound mind could ever choose abortion.)
“don’t think women who have abortions should go to jail”
I’d be open to it personally (though I think prisons have a slew of their own problems) but it makes for lousy arguments if your goal is to slowly shift public opinion. rather than being scrupulously consistent.
Many religious objections to birth control consist of “It’s actually abortion, just a bit more subtle”—preventing implantation of a fertilized embryo is the same as a surgical abortion, if you don’t distinguish between a day’s gestation and two months’. Most of the rest seem like generalized objections to sex—human biology being what it is, the punishment for that will inevitably fall largely on the shoulders of women. It doesn’t seem like it’s just a female-specific objection, though—I doubt your average religious objector would get too worked up at the thought of alimony or a shotgun marriage, and most seem to actively encourage adoption.
As for your proposed strategy, it seems like it’s basically trying to do the same thing, given how liberalized sex and liberalized religion are so tightly bound in practice.
The objections there are mostly “It’ll lead to evil nookie!”, and to a lesser extent “It’s not 100% reliable”(as though anything in life is...oh wait, abstinence can’t lead to pregnancy, because the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down—how could I have forgotten?). They’re stupid objections, but to people who literally believe that sex outside of marriage will lead to an eternity of torture, I can sort of see how they connect the dots.
If there are objections on the soul level, you should still expect to see a hierarchy based on preventing/allowing fertilization per birth control.
For example: Going by pure number of ‘abortions’ (counting as any termination of a fertilized ovum), there is a continuum for birth control. IIRC it’s pill → patch → condoms → spermicide+condoms → shot → implant → IUD → surgery. Implants and especially IUDs cause up to an order of magnitude fewer of these ‘instant abortions’ compared to the pill.
We should expect to see pro-life campaigns saying “get an IUD, NOT the pill!” (Or supporting vasectomy / tubal ligation, but fat chance on those.) But again, we don’t see that. Because those 99.9% effective things will lead to sin.
Turns out free access to birth control slashes the abortion rate. Less punishing women, less abortions. Cool, we’ve identified a point of differentiation.
Okay, so what did most of the ‘pro-life’ side go with? Shit, turns out they went with punishing women instead of fewer abortions and again and again and again. Well, that’s not cool. For fairness’ and balance’s sake, I’ll say that the pro-choice is probably less about integrity of body and more about wanting to fuck without consequence.
This isn’t necessarily a good argument given that they have theological objections to birth control. This maybe indicates a general value which is an objection to technological modification of issues connected to reproduction as part of what may be a general reactionary attitude. This is consistent with for example, the early objections to IVF and the use of anesthesia in pregnancy. However, the second one of these could also be construed as a “punish women” goal, even as it has become uncommon. It might be noteworthy in this context that the IVF issue still is an issue for Catholic official doctrine but not almost any Protestants, and the objection to anesthesia in pregnancy is essentially gone completely. On the other hand, maybe looking at something more connected to male biology might help: if this is purely an objection to technical intervention in sex, then one would expect objections to Viagra and similar drugs. But they don’t exist. So that’s an argument against the technical intervention hypothesis.
Another possibility is that trying to understand is part of a general attempt to give broad explanations for what amounts to an attempt to modify old theology to handle modern technologies and dilemmas. Thus the exact results may be to some extent essentially stochastic. One example that might prove an interesting contrast in this context to the Christian right outlook is that of Orthodox Judaism. In some respects, Orthodox Judaism has more of an objection to birth control than it has to abortion. Fitting this sort of norm into any of the above hypotheses really seems like shoehorning.
Why do people insist on comparisons to -Viagra- when discussing birth control? Vasectomy would be a better comparison. Of course, it doesn’t illustrate the same kind of point, because religious objections to vasectomy do exist (and get almost no media coverage compared to religious objections to comparable procedures in women).
Why do people insist on comparisons to -Viagra- when discussing birth control? Vasectomy would be a better comparison. Of course, it doesn’t illustrate the same kind of point, because religious objections to vasectomy do exist
So this is an interesting point but actually reinforces the sorts of claims being made by Xachariah, since the amount of objection to vasectomies is much smaller than the amount of objection to birth control, which is consistent with his hypothesis. But I suspect that in fact the reason vasectomies aren’t used as an example are far the same (actual) reason that they don’t have nearly as much objection: they aren’t that common.
Thinking more about this though, there’s another interesting hypothesis that hasn’t been discussed yet: the goal might not be punishing a specific gender for having sex, but punishing sex in general. That seems by and large consistent with almost all of the discussed issues here with viagra being possibly a counterexample.
So this is an interesting point but actually reinforces the sorts of claims being made by Xachariah, since the amount of objection to vasectomies is much smaller than the amount of objection to birth control, which is consistent with his hypothesis.
If you’re thinking about US politics in 2012, most of the “objection to birth control” was objection to Obama’s mandate that insurance companies to fully cover birth control for women, but not men.
More generally, in the US there’s much more objection to birth control. This is a long-term trend independent of any recent issues. Moreover, the objections made about the recent health-care mandate were not made by and large based on gender equality issues.
Moreover, the objections made about the recent health-care mandate were not made by and large based on gender equality issues.
Sure. My point was that no one was requiring employers to cover vasectomies, so of course no one will get angry about having to provide vasectomy coverage.
Vasectomies(and tube-tying) tend to be used very differently than temporary birth control. Usually they’re done either in the context of a married couple who has as many kids as they want, or someone with serious enough medical issues that reproduction would be ill-advised. As such, the impact on casual sex is dramatically different than the impact of the Pill or abortions.
I’m not sure that state laws mandating specific corporate policy make a good basis for defending corporate policies.
That said, even if it were true, I am not sure it’s really that objectionable. Viagra is intended to treat a dysfunction of the body, whereas birth control is intended to prevent a function of the body; they’re not comparable in kind, even if they both enable the same behaviors.
This isn’t necessarily a good argument given that they have theological objections to birth control.
Given that there’s no god to specify what theology you get, this just raises the question — why do they have those theological objections? You’re proposing what amounts to a null hypothesis in your notion that “the exact results may be to some extent essentially stochastic”.
One example that might prove an interesting contrast in this context to the Christian right outlook is that of Orthodox Judaism.
Or the various cultures wherein are found the murder of women who have extramarital sex and other forms of “honor” violence. The differences do not seem to be described well as theological differences, since some of the same behaviors exist across different religions in some regions of the world.
It is easy for atheists to come to the conclusion that religious people do nasty things because of religion. I suspect that it would be more accurate to say that religion provides a set of powerful rationalizations for certain emotional reactions; and that which reactions a person manifests has as much to do with other elements of culture as with their theology.
For fairness’ and balance’s sake, I’ll say that the pro-choice is probably less about integrity of body and more about wanting to fuck without consequence.
Funny, from my point of view this evidence suggests that pro-lifers are actually more concerned with controlling women’s sex lives, than with saving unborn babies.
I bet the down votes are for re-iterating the parent comments main point as if it were novel and original to you?
Didn’t you understand what this meant: “lets go with “Women deserve to be punished for having sex,” and that ‘life-begins-at-conception’ is just a rationalization”?
Re-reading the grand-grand-grand-grand-parent post, yes, I now see that you’re correct that that was what he was trying to get at—although he certainly wasn’t being particularly clear.
But regardless, downvoting someone for conceding a point to someone they’re engaged in debate with is pretty lame.
Your model assumes that all people believe in a position for the same reason. In my debates with different people about abortion different people seem to hold their positions for different reasons.
Thinking that all people who disagree with you are on one side and think exactly the same is a good way to prevent rational debate.
Being anti-abortion either causes or has a common cause with believing that life begins at conception. Being pro-abortion causes or has a common cause with believing that life doesn’t begin at conception.
It’s not obvious a priori that being anti-abortion isn’t caused by believing that life begins at conception (but I agree that, except for people deep down the valley of bad rationality, it’s way less likely that their morality depends on their definition of the English word life than the other way round).
Even if we’re talking about axiomatic disagreements, rational debate is still useful. Eg, we can still use rationality to help identify which axioms we’re disagreeing with.
Case in point is your abortion example. I think you’ve messed up your lines of cause and effect there. Being anti-abortion either causes or has a common cause with believing that life begins at conception. Being pro-abortion causes or has a common cause with believing that life doesn’t begin at conception.
Let me posit an axiom that causes anti-abortion. Instead of the whole ‘soul’ thing, lets go with “Women deserve to be punished for having sex,” and that ‘life-begins-at-conception’ is just a rationalization. If this were true, anti-abortion should coincide with religiosity (it does) and pro-abortion should coincide with women’s rights (also does). Both axioms correctly fit the existing data. How could we tell the difference… which axiom is the true axiom?
My rationalist shoes say we’d want to identify a differentiation point where these two axioms would cause different results. Have there been any occasions where “reduce number of abortions” and “punish women for having sex” come into conflict? Here’s one. Turns out free access to birth control slashes the abortion rate. Less punishing women, less abortions. Cool, we’ve identified a point of differentiation.
Okay, so what did most of the ‘pro-life’ side go with? Shit, turns out they went with punishing women instead of fewer abortions and again and again and again. Well, that’s not cool. For fairness’ and balance’s sake, I’ll say that the pro-choice is probably less about integrity of body and more about wanting to fuck without consequence.
As you note, we’ve still got an axiomatic disagreement. In order to change the opposing side’s mind we still need to shift their axiom. However, rationality has let the pro-abortion side aim their rhetorical firepower at the correct target. Instead of talking about the neural activity of fetuses, they can start making people feel more comfortable and accepting of sex. Once they’re correctly targeting the true axiom, they’ll have a lot more luck in shifting the opposing side’s position.
Every pro-lifer I’ve ever met has shared two characteristics: they don’t think women who have abortions should go to jail, and they think that women who have abortions are worse off than women who choose to give birth. That doesn’t fit with the pregnancy-as-punishment theory.
(It does however, expose another type of misogyny: they refuse to believe a mature woman in a sound mind could ever choose abortion.)
The first characteristic, even if it doesn’t fit the pregnancy-as-punishment theory terribly well, fits far worse with the abortion-as-murder theory.
“don’t think women who have abortions should go to jail” I’d be open to it personally (though I think prisons have a slew of their own problems) but it makes for lousy arguments if your goal is to slowly shift public opinion. rather than being scrupulously consistent.
Many religious objections to birth control consist of “It’s actually abortion, just a bit more subtle”—preventing implantation of a fertilized embryo is the same as a surgical abortion, if you don’t distinguish between a day’s gestation and two months’. Most of the rest seem like generalized objections to sex—human biology being what it is, the punishment for that will inevitably fall largely on the shoulders of women. It doesn’t seem like it’s just a female-specific objection, though—I doubt your average religious objector would get too worked up at the thought of alimony or a shotgun marriage, and most seem to actively encourage adoption.
As for your proposed strategy, it seems like it’s basically trying to do the same thing, given how liberalized sex and liberalized religion are so tightly bound in practice.
What about ways to prevent the ovum from being fertilized in the first place, e.g. condoms or vasectomy?
The objections there are mostly “It’ll lead to evil nookie!”, and to a lesser extent “It’s not 100% reliable”(as though anything in life is...oh wait, abstinence can’t lead to pregnancy, because the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down—how could I have forgotten?). They’re stupid objections, but to people who literally believe that sex outside of marriage will lead to an eternity of torture, I can sort of see how they connect the dots.
If there are objections on the soul level, you should still expect to see a hierarchy based on preventing/allowing fertilization per birth control.
For example: Going by pure number of ‘abortions’ (counting as any termination of a fertilized ovum), there is a continuum for birth control. IIRC it’s pill → patch → condoms → spermicide+condoms → shot → implant → IUD → surgery. Implants and especially IUDs cause up to an order of magnitude fewer of these ‘instant abortions’ compared to the pill.
We should expect to see pro-life campaigns saying “get an IUD, NOT the pill!” (Or supporting vasectomy / tubal ligation, but fat chance on those.) But again, we don’t see that. Because those 99.9% effective things will lead to sin.
This isn’t necessarily a good argument given that they have theological objections to birth control. This maybe indicates a general value which is an objection to technological modification of issues connected to reproduction as part of what may be a general reactionary attitude. This is consistent with for example, the early objections to IVF and the use of anesthesia in pregnancy. However, the second one of these could also be construed as a “punish women” goal, even as it has become uncommon. It might be noteworthy in this context that the IVF issue still is an issue for Catholic official doctrine but not almost any Protestants, and the objection to anesthesia in pregnancy is essentially gone completely. On the other hand, maybe looking at something more connected to male biology might help: if this is purely an objection to technical intervention in sex, then one would expect objections to Viagra and similar drugs. But they don’t exist. So that’s an argument against the technical intervention hypothesis.
Another possibility is that trying to understand is part of a general attempt to give broad explanations for what amounts to an attempt to modify old theology to handle modern technologies and dilemmas. Thus the exact results may be to some extent essentially stochastic. One example that might prove an interesting contrast in this context to the Christian right outlook is that of Orthodox Judaism. In some respects, Orthodox Judaism has more of an objection to birth control than it has to abortion. Fitting this sort of norm into any of the above hypotheses really seems like shoehorning.
Why do people insist on comparisons to -Viagra- when discussing birth control? Vasectomy would be a better comparison. Of course, it doesn’t illustrate the same kind of point, because religious objections to vasectomy do exist (and get almost no media coverage compared to religious objections to comparable procedures in women).
So this is an interesting point but actually reinforces the sorts of claims being made by Xachariah, since the amount of objection to vasectomies is much smaller than the amount of objection to birth control, which is consistent with his hypothesis. But I suspect that in fact the reason vasectomies aren’t used as an example are far the same (actual) reason that they don’t have nearly as much objection: they aren’t that common.
Thinking more about this though, there’s another interesting hypothesis that hasn’t been discussed yet: the goal might not be punishing a specific gender for having sex, but punishing sex in general. That seems by and large consistent with almost all of the discussed issues here with viagra being possibly a counterexample.
If you’re thinking about US politics in 2012, most of the “objection to birth control” was objection to Obama’s mandate that insurance companies to fully cover birth control for women, but not men.
More generally, in the US there’s much more objection to birth control. This is a long-term trend independent of any recent issues. Moreover, the objections made about the recent health-care mandate were not made by and large based on gender equality issues.
Sure. My point was that no one was requiring employers to cover vasectomies, so of course no one will get angry about having to provide vasectomy coverage.
Vasectomies(and tube-tying) tend to be used very differently than temporary birth control. Usually they’re done either in the context of a married couple who has as many kids as they want, or someone with serious enough medical issues that reproduction would be ill-advised. As such, the impact on casual sex is dramatically different than the impact of the Pill or abortions.
Someone started a rumor last decade that a large portion of health insurers cover Viagra but not birth control. It’s not true.
I’m not sure that state laws mandating specific corporate policy make a good basis for defending corporate policies.
That said, even if it were true, I am not sure it’s really that objectionable. Viagra is intended to treat a dysfunction of the body, whereas birth control is intended to prevent a function of the body; they’re not comparable in kind, even if they both enable the same behaviors.
Given that there’s no god to specify what theology you get, this just raises the question — why do they have those theological objections? You’re proposing what amounts to a null hypothesis in your notion that “the exact results may be to some extent essentially stochastic”.
Or the various cultures wherein are found the murder of women who have extramarital sex and other forms of “honor” violence. The differences do not seem to be described well as theological differences, since some of the same behaviors exist across different religions in some regions of the world.
It is easy for atheists to come to the conclusion that religious people do nasty things because of religion. I suspect that it would be more accurate to say that religion provides a set of powerful rationalizations for certain emotional reactions; and that which reactions a person manifests has as much to do with other elements of culture as with their theology.
Funny, from my point of view this evidence suggests that pro-lifers are actually more concerned with controlling women’s sex lives, than with saving unborn babies.
Can’t it be both?
Yes, I suppose so. Good point.
Edit: Seriously? Downvotes? For conceding that my political opponent made a good point? Seriously?
I bet the down votes are for re-iterating the parent comments main point as if it were novel and original to you? Didn’t you understand what this meant: “lets go with “Women deserve to be punished for having sex,” and that ‘life-begins-at-conception’ is just a rationalization”?
Re-reading the grand-grand-grand-grand-parent post, yes, I now see that you’re correct that that was what he was trying to get at—although he certainly wasn’t being particularly clear.
But regardless, downvoting someone for conceding a point to someone they’re engaged in debate with is pretty lame.
Your model assumes that all people believe in a position for the same reason. In my debates with different people about abortion different people seem to hold their positions for different reasons.
Thinking that all people who disagree with you are on one side and think exactly the same is a good way to prevent rational debate.
It’s not obvious a priori that being anti-abortion isn’t caused by believing that life begins at conception (but I agree that, except for people deep down the valley of bad rationality, it’s way less likely that their morality depends on their definition of the English word life than the other way round).