You seem to be confusing high-status creep and low-status creep. The latter, which you describe, happens among desperate low-status men (rarely other genders), is characterized by misogyny and a sense of thwarted entitlement, is obvious to outsiders, and makes then even less desirable partners. Hanging around women is usually promoted as a cure, and looks like it works. I see little evidence for or against this being evolutionary or cultural.
The former happens among predators, who often (not always) are high-status because they’re driven to be, is characterized by a sense of entitlement that is denied but acted on (by flouting norms and personally-imposed boundaries on interaction, especially sexual), and works in the sense that it gets the creeper lots of dubiously consensual sex while avoiding social blame. This seems to be a straightforward outgrowth of “Screw the rules, I have status”.
That seems like an accurate description to me. I’m inclined to think that if LW has any kind of creep problem, it’s more likely to be low-status creep problem, i.e. men who feel like social outcasts (possibly because they’re really smart and have always had a hard time finding people like them to make friends with) and have been programmed to alieve that as social outcasts, the only way they’re going to have sex is through creepy means.
And maybe part of the solution to this problem is to help men feel less like social outcasts. Group hug, everyone! I’m also in favor if discouraging creepy behavior verbally; I’m just suggesting this as an additional solution.
And maybe part of the solution to this problem is to help men feel less like social outcasts. Group hug, everyone!
And this gets into a related issue—male/male affection in general is often strongly proscribed, at least in Western society, to the point where a risk of censure for the mere possibility of a sexual component is a real risk. My guess is that most men, regardless of status or other factors, will not fail to pick up on this, given the sheer amount of signalling to that effect. Some groups that recognize this problem try to drive an even harder wedge of distinction between the two possible readings of any given affectionate act, which doesn’t help in the long run; it simply exacerbates the matter.
Clearly a whole lotta lower-status creepy men who feel like social outcasts need to start doing something to shake this homophobia and this obsession with their own sexual dissatisfaction, and the rigidly-framed societal narratives they’re willing to accept that being fulfilled within...
And this gets into a related issue—male/male affection in general is often strongly proscribed, at least in Western society, to the point where a risk of censure for the mere possibility of a sexual component is a real risk.
Clearly a whole lotta lower-status creepy men who feel like social outcasts need to start doing something to shake this homophobia and this obsession with their own sexual dissatisfaction, and the rigidly-framed societal narratives they’re willing to accept that being fulfilled within...
The vast majority of modern societies where male/male non-sexual affection is considered normal are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality, like say Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East and to a lesser extent other Mediterranean cultures like say the Sicilian one, so I’m not sure it is useful to frame it in those terms.
The unfortunate norms basically arise out of the following: “It is socially acceptable to have sex with men, the standard social identity for that assumes you have sex with only men, how do I signal I don’t have sex with men?”
So the solution is increased tolerance and visibility of bisexuality? That explains the most male-male-affectionate subculture I know of, the sigh furry community, where bisexuality is rarely erased.
So the solution is increased tolerance and visibility of bisexuality?
A possible solution, yes. It works as long as people don’t mind dating bisexuals. If people prefer to date those who only date one gender, it doesn’t work that well since it still pays to signal.
Yah, it definitely varies in time, place and cultural context.
The vast majority of modern societies where male/male non-sexual affection is considered normal are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality
The vast majority of modern societies (full stop) are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality. The variance on human cultural diversity has been winnowed a lot; you don’t see much like the Spartan or old Celtic norms today. Both colonialism and the spread of big, monotheistic conversion-focused religions probably have at least a bit to do with that (though the religion angle shouldn’t be overemphasized either—indigenous cultures that aren’t violently subjected to conversion often come up with interesting syncretic adaptations—the Minangkabau are polyandric, matrifocal, animist, intellectual-focused Muslim culture who were able to bring in Islam at their pace, on their terms).
Basically what I’m saying here is I don’t think acceptance of male/male affection in general is a causal determinant of homophobia in culture, and that pragmatically, both problems need attention in this culture.
The vast majority of modern societies (full stop) are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality.
There are worlds of difference between Sweden and Turkey, let alone Sweden and Saudi Arabia.
Remember that while in some parts of the ancient world homosexual relations with young men or fellow fighters where tolerated or even idealized as a higher form of love than with women, men where generally still pressured to find wives and produce heirs with them. There where exceptions to this, but they where just that, exceptions. Homosexuals outside of the closet in the West are not under such pressure by society at large.
Naturally the social construct of homosexual identity has besides such benefits also limitations and expectations peculiar to our society that came up with it, that may not be something everyone wants.
I assume you are referring to family pressure? Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex. But you are probably more knowledgeable on this than I am.
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. One can much more plausibly make this argument on the same grounds we criticize other things that where never better but should be better in the future.
I’m just wondering if this is something we now agree on or if you found it unconvincing.
Edit: I would appreciate it if down voters would comment to explain why they down vote.
Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex
I hear it a lot—I live in the US, I grew up in mostly liberal areas of it (and live in one now) and it’s still very common for me to hear, both in person and in media, the idea that queer people are confused, deviant or mentally-ill. I don’t tend to hear the suggestion that they’re demon-possessed outside of more “churchy” circles than I habitually frequent, but I do run into the attitude from time to time since I have a fair bit of contact with multiple culture groups in my everyday life (and pretty much all of them have their own flavor of homophobia).
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today
Sure, I agree with you.
and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality.
Well, I didn’t mean to make that point by means of the comparison, but I do think it’s a true statement—I genuinely if you were to round up all the distinct societal groups in the world today (however you want to slice the distinctions—I’d say it’s true at both the level of communities and nation-states), you’d find that a big majority of them display homophobic/heterosexist norms. That’s not to say it’s the same kind or intensity everywhere, but my life as a queer person has left me rather disillusioned with the idea that even places with a reputation for “tolerance” or “acceptance” (say, a liberal city in Canada, which I’ve spent plenty of time in, and where same-sex marriage is just a thing, or the Netherlands, which I haven’t visited but have some friends from) are really, at a basic statistical level, not homophobic. I agree that in some places those norms have shifted so greatly that it’s not a major thing there, but I don’t think those places are really representative of the majority of human social groups or cultures, however finely-grained your definition of those things.
The vast majority of modern societies where male/male non-sexual affection is considered normal are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality
Yes, but within each society ISTM that the individuals who display less affection towards members of the same sex tend to be the more homophobic ones (possibly because homophobes don’t want to be seen as showing more same-sex affection than the typical person in their own society).
You seem to be confusing high-status creep and low-status creep. The latter, which you describe, happens among desperate low-status men (rarely other genders), is characterized by misogyny and a sense of thwarted entitlement, is obvious to outsiders, and makes then even less desirable partners. Hanging around women is usually promoted as a cure, and looks like it works. I see little evidence for or against this being evolutionary or cultural.
The former happens among predators, who often (not always) are high-status because they’re driven to be, is characterized by a sense of entitlement that is denied but acted on (by flouting norms and personally-imposed boundaries on interaction, especially sexual), and works in the sense that it gets the creeper lots of dubiously consensual sex while avoiding social blame. This seems to be a straightforward outgrowth of “Screw the rules, I have status”.
That seems like an accurate description to me. I’m inclined to think that if LW has any kind of creep problem, it’s more likely to be low-status creep problem, i.e. men who feel like social outcasts (possibly because they’re really smart and have always had a hard time finding people like them to make friends with) and have been programmed to alieve that as social outcasts, the only way they’re going to have sex is through creepy means.
And maybe part of the solution to this problem is to help men feel less like social outcasts. Group hug, everyone! I’m also in favor if discouraging creepy behavior verbally; I’m just suggesting this as an additional solution.
And this gets into a related issue—male/male affection in general is often strongly proscribed, at least in Western society, to the point where a risk of censure for the mere possibility of a sexual component is a real risk. My guess is that most men, regardless of status or other factors, will not fail to pick up on this, given the sheer amount of signalling to that effect. Some groups that recognize this problem try to drive an even harder wedge of distinction between the two possible readings of any given affectionate act, which doesn’t help in the long run; it simply exacerbates the matter.
Clearly a whole lotta lower-status creepy men who feel like social outcasts need to start doing something to shake this homophobia and this obsession with their own sexual dissatisfaction, and the rigidly-framed societal narratives they’re willing to accept that being fulfilled within...
It should be noted this is a recent phenomena. This wasn’t at all the case in the 19th and early 20th century.
The vast majority of modern societies where male/male non-sexual affection is considered normal are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality, like say Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East and to a lesser extent other Mediterranean cultures like say the Sicilian one, so I’m not sure it is useful to frame it in those terms.
The unfortunate norms basically arise out of the following: “It is socially acceptable to have sex with men, the standard social identity for that assumes you have sex with only men, how do I signal I don’t have sex with men?”
So the solution is increased tolerance and visibility of bisexuality? That explains the most male-male-affectionate subculture I know of, the sigh furry community, where bisexuality is rarely erased.
A possible solution, yes. It works as long as people don’t mind dating bisexuals. If people prefer to date those who only date one gender, it doesn’t work that well since it still pays to signal.
Yah, it definitely varies in time, place and cultural context.
The vast majority of modern societies (full stop) are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality. The variance on human cultural diversity has been winnowed a lot; you don’t see much like the Spartan or old Celtic norms today. Both colonialism and the spread of big, monotheistic conversion-focused religions probably have at least a bit to do with that (though the religion angle shouldn’t be overemphasized either—indigenous cultures that aren’t violently subjected to conversion often come up with interesting syncretic adaptations—the Minangkabau are polyandric, matrifocal, animist, intellectual-focused Muslim culture who were able to bring in Islam at their pace, on their terms).
Basically what I’m saying here is I don’t think acceptance of male/male affection in general is a causal determinant of homophobia in culture, and that pragmatically, both problems need attention in this culture.
There are worlds of difference between Sweden and Turkey, let alone Sweden and Saudi Arabia.
Remember that while in some parts of the ancient world homosexual relations with young men or fellow fighters where tolerated or even idealized as a higher form of love than with women, men where generally still pressured to find wives and produce heirs with them. There where exceptions to this, but they where just that, exceptions. Homosexuals outside of the closet in the West are not under such pressure by society at large.
Naturally the social construct of homosexual identity has besides such benefits also limitations and expectations peculiar to our society that came up with it, that may not be something everyone wants.
Me and a whole lotta other queer people know might beg to differ on that point. ;p
I assume you are referring to family pressure? Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex. But you are probably more knowledgeable on this than I am.
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. One can much more plausibly make this argument on the same grounds we criticize other things that where never better but should be better in the future.
I’m just wondering if this is something we now agree on or if you found it unconvincing.
Edit: I would appreciate it if down voters would comment to explain why they down vote.
Some but not only.
I hear it a lot—I live in the US, I grew up in mostly liberal areas of it (and live in one now) and it’s still very common for me to hear, both in person and in media, the idea that queer people are confused, deviant or mentally-ill. I don’t tend to hear the suggestion that they’re demon-possessed outside of more “churchy” circles than I habitually frequent, but I do run into the attitude from time to time since I have a fair bit of contact with multiple culture groups in my everyday life (and pretty much all of them have their own flavor of homophobia).
Sure, I agree with you.
Well, I didn’t mean to make that point by means of the comparison, but I do think it’s a true statement—I genuinely if you were to round up all the distinct societal groups in the world today (however you want to slice the distinctions—I’d say it’s true at both the level of communities and nation-states), you’d find that a big majority of them display homophobic/heterosexist norms. That’s not to say it’s the same kind or intensity everywhere, but my life as a queer person has left me rather disillusioned with the idea that even places with a reputation for “tolerance” or “acceptance” (say, a liberal city in Canada, which I’ve spent plenty of time in, and where same-sex marriage is just a thing, or the Netherlands, which I haven’t visited but have some friends from) are really, at a basic statistical level, not homophobic. I agree that in some places those norms have shifted so greatly that it’s not a major thing there, but I don’t think those places are really representative of the majority of human social groups or cultures, however finely-grained your definition of those things.
Yes, but within each society ISTM that the individuals who display less affection towards members of the same sex tend to be the more homophobic ones (possibly because homophobes don’t want to be seen as showing more same-sex affection than the typical person in their own society).
Also, placing a male into a high status position probably increases the chance he will exhibit this behavior.