The vast majority of modern societies (full stop) are incredibly intolerant of homosexuality.
There are worlds of difference between Sweden and Turkey, let alone Sweden and Saudi Arabia.
Remember that while in some parts of the ancient world homosexual relations with young men or fellow fighters where tolerated or even idealized as a higher form of love than with women, men where generally still pressured to find wives and produce heirs with them. There where exceptions to this, but they where just that, exceptions. Homosexuals outside of the closet in the West are not under such pressure by society at large.
Naturally the social construct of homosexual identity has besides such benefits also limitations and expectations peculiar to our society that came up with it, that may not be something everyone wants.
I assume you are referring to family pressure? Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex. But you are probably more knowledgeable on this than I am.
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. One can much more plausibly make this argument on the same grounds we criticize other things that where never better but should be better in the future.
I’m just wondering if this is something we now agree on or if you found it unconvincing.
Edit: I would appreciate it if down voters would comment to explain why they down vote.
Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex
I hear it a lot—I live in the US, I grew up in mostly liberal areas of it (and live in one now) and it’s still very common for me to hear, both in person and in media, the idea that queer people are confused, deviant or mentally-ill. I don’t tend to hear the suggestion that they’re demon-possessed outside of more “churchy” circles than I habitually frequent, but I do run into the attitude from time to time since I have a fair bit of contact with multiple culture groups in my everyday life (and pretty much all of them have their own flavor of homophobia).
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today
Sure, I agree with you.
and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality.
Well, I didn’t mean to make that point by means of the comparison, but I do think it’s a true statement—I genuinely if you were to round up all the distinct societal groups in the world today (however you want to slice the distinctions—I’d say it’s true at both the level of communities and nation-states), you’d find that a big majority of them display homophobic/heterosexist norms. That’s not to say it’s the same kind or intensity everywhere, but my life as a queer person has left me rather disillusioned with the idea that even places with a reputation for “tolerance” or “acceptance” (say, a liberal city in Canada, which I’ve spent plenty of time in, and where same-sex marriage is just a thing, or the Netherlands, which I haven’t visited but have some friends from) are really, at a basic statistical level, not homophobic. I agree that in some places those norms have shifted so greatly that it’s not a major thing there, but I don’t think those places are really representative of the majority of human social groups or cultures, however finely-grained your definition of those things.
There are worlds of difference between Sweden and Turkey, let alone Sweden and Saudi Arabia.
Remember that while in some parts of the ancient world homosexual relations with young men or fellow fighters where tolerated or even idealized as a higher form of love than with women, men where generally still pressured to find wives and produce heirs with them. There where exceptions to this, but they where just that, exceptions. Homosexuals outside of the closet in the West are not under such pressure by society at large.
Naturally the social construct of homosexual identity has besides such benefits also limitations and expectations peculiar to our society that came up with it, that may not be something everyone wants.
Me and a whole lotta other queer people know might beg to differ on that point. ;p
I assume you are referring to family pressure? Outside of “pray the gay away” American silliness from some Churches I don’t think I see much pressure to marry with the opposite sex. But you are probably more knowledgeable on this than I am.
What I was going for is that the social reality of homosexuality in some parts of the ancient world as it likely was has both ups and downs when compared to the social reality of homosexuality in the West today and that comparison to them is hard to use that as an argument that all modern societies are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. One can much more plausibly make this argument on the same grounds we criticize other things that where never better but should be better in the future.
I’m just wondering if this is something we now agree on or if you found it unconvincing.
Edit: I would appreciate it if down voters would comment to explain why they down vote.
Some but not only.
I hear it a lot—I live in the US, I grew up in mostly liberal areas of it (and live in one now) and it’s still very common for me to hear, both in person and in media, the idea that queer people are confused, deviant or mentally-ill. I don’t tend to hear the suggestion that they’re demon-possessed outside of more “churchy” circles than I habitually frequent, but I do run into the attitude from time to time since I have a fair bit of contact with multiple culture groups in my everyday life (and pretty much all of them have their own flavor of homophobia).
Sure, I agree with you.
Well, I didn’t mean to make that point by means of the comparison, but I do think it’s a true statement—I genuinely if you were to round up all the distinct societal groups in the world today (however you want to slice the distinctions—I’d say it’s true at both the level of communities and nation-states), you’d find that a big majority of them display homophobic/heterosexist norms. That’s not to say it’s the same kind or intensity everywhere, but my life as a queer person has left me rather disillusioned with the idea that even places with a reputation for “tolerance” or “acceptance” (say, a liberal city in Canada, which I’ve spent plenty of time in, and where same-sex marriage is just a thing, or the Netherlands, which I haven’t visited but have some friends from) are really, at a basic statistical level, not homophobic. I agree that in some places those norms have shifted so greatly that it’s not a major thing there, but I don’t think those places are really representative of the majority of human social groups or cultures, however finely-grained your definition of those things.