Fortunately, this isn’t just about some kind of abstract “being creepy” XML tag getting attached to individuals. It’s about specific behaviors which individuals can learn not to do.
There were a couple guys in my high school who admittedly had big personality flaws, but then girls preyed on them by intentionally putting the guys in positions where the guys thought the girls were showing interest, but then the girl could immediately retreat to calling the guy creepy. This was useful for discrediting people the girls didn’t like, as well as making the girls seem more desirable.
Sounds like pretty typical but unfortunate levels of high-school harassment and hazing. That’s not what we’re talking about here.
The first paragraph, specifically, is more relevant. I don’t really think anyone here is planning on maliciously accusing anyone else of being creepy in order to exploit the representativeness heuristic. But I’m worried that someone with good intentions might move too quickly in determining whether someone is really creepy or not, and that bad consequences would result.
The key is just to question whether a noncreepy person could also have reasons for engaging in behavior X, before concluding that they’re creepy and then immediately proceeding to take action. If there’s no reminder to look for what does or does not distinguish the two people then you’ll end up privileging whatever hypothesis you already had in mind, which as a result of this post would be the creepiness hypothesis.
Or is the important thing whether someone is engaging in a behaviour that they have control over, that is having negative consequences, and they are failing to take steps to change this even when the negative consequences are pointed out to them?
Not all actions which are labeled creepy have negative consequences or are exclusive to creepy people. If someone does an action without negative consequences but that action is then labeled creepy prematurely without considering the motive behind it, then this premature labeling will have negative consequences. Bad labels mean bad models of reality which result in bad decisions. Mistaking someone for a creep when they’re not precludes making friends with a potentially good person, and means your predictions of their behavior will be wrong.
You say that “they are failing to take steps to change this even when the negative consequences are pointed out to them”. I am confused. You seem to be envisioning a very specific type of scenario here, and I don’t know why you think that I would be envisioning the same scenario. Since when did my argument get restricted to instances where someone has been confronted with their creepiness and refused to change? My argument is meant to encourage caution in the people here are considering experiences from their own lives and trying to determine who is and isn’t creepy, on a general overall sort of level, not to this very specific kind of instance that you mention.
The key is just to question whether a noncreepy person could also have reasons for engaging in behavior X, before concluding that they’re creepy and then immediately proceeding to take action.
On the contrary, I think the key is to consistently label nonconsensual taking of intimacies as “creepy” regardless of who does it. Treating “creepy” as an XML tag on people is a terrible idea — both for the “creeps” and for others. Declaring, “Some people are noncreepy” is vulnerable to exploitation by people who manage to get themselves labeled “noncreepy” and then go around assaulting people with impunity, knowing that their noncreepy tag will protect them from accusations: when someone says “Hey, Joe assaulted me!” others will respond, “He couldn’t have done that; he’s noncreepy!” That’s part of what the feminists call “rape culture”.
On the contrary, I think the key is to consistently label nonconsensual taking of intimacies as “creepy” regardless of who does it.
I don’t have a problem with that. My point is that some behaviors which aren’t “nonconsensual taking[s] of intimacies” are still associated with creepiness (some for good reason, even, like murdering cats or what have you) and that we need to check those behaviors for alternative explanations (maybe they have really really bad allergies [although probably not!]).
Treating “creepy” as an XML tag on people is a terrible idea — both for the “creeps” and for others.
Taboo XML tag and say this again. Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
Declaring, “Some people are noncreepy” is vulnerable to exploitation by people who manage to get themselves labeled “noncreepy” and then go around assaulting people with impunity, knowing that their noncreepy tag will protect them from accusations: when someone says “Hey, Joe assaulted me!” others will respond “He couldn’t have done that; he’s noncreepy!” That’s part of what the feminists call “rape culture”.
I think the position you argue against is roughly correct, actually. If there are behaviors and characteristics that strongly correlate with a lack of creepiness, it is logical to have a low prior probability on the judgement that someone with those characteristics will assault someone. For example, if someone is asexual or a child, then it’s incredibly likely that they aren’t a sexual predator. If someone is really nice and doesn’t stare at girls or do anything weird, they’re also probably not a predator. Yes, people can get around your best predictions, but that isn’t a reason to not make predictions in the first place, it’s just a reason to update when you get more evidence.
If Joe really isn’t creepy at all then he’s probably either innocent or a sociopath. If I knew Joe, and he seemed like a really nice guy, and he’s never said anything that seemed slightly disturbing, and he’d been perfectly normal his whole life, I wouldn’t just assume that he must be a rapist just because I heard a rumor somewhere. That would be dumb of me. The correct response is to gather more information, while for now going with your priors that say Joe is a-okay.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I thought we were both responding to the general topic; I didn’t mean to imply that you had that intention.
Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
Fortunately, this isn’t just about some kind of abstract “being creepy” XML tag getting attached to individuals. It’s about specific behaviors which individuals can learn not to do.
Sounds like pretty typical but unfortunate levels of high-school harassment and hazing. That’s not what we’re talking about here.
In places where there is a socially determined reputation, that’s exactly what it’s like.
Oh, I don’t disagree that happens. But it’s not what this thread — and, particularly, the “how not to be creepy” sources in the OP — are about.
The first paragraph, specifically, is more relevant. I don’t really think anyone here is planning on maliciously accusing anyone else of being creepy in order to exploit the representativeness heuristic. But I’m worried that someone with good intentions might move too quickly in determining whether someone is really creepy or not, and that bad consequences would result.
The key is just to question whether a noncreepy person could also have reasons for engaging in behavior X, before concluding that they’re creepy and then immediately proceeding to take action. If there’s no reminder to look for what does or does not distinguish the two people then you’ll end up privileging whatever hypothesis you already had in mind, which as a result of this post would be the creepiness hypothesis.
Does the label and motive matter?
Or is the important thing whether someone is engaging in a behaviour that they have control over, that is having negative consequences, and they are failing to take steps to change this even when the negative consequences are pointed out to them?
Not all actions which are labeled creepy have negative consequences or are exclusive to creepy people. If someone does an action without negative consequences but that action is then labeled creepy prematurely without considering the motive behind it, then this premature labeling will have negative consequences. Bad labels mean bad models of reality which result in bad decisions. Mistaking someone for a creep when they’re not precludes making friends with a potentially good person, and means your predictions of their behavior will be wrong.
You say that “they are failing to take steps to change this even when the negative consequences are pointed out to them”. I am confused. You seem to be envisioning a very specific type of scenario here, and I don’t know why you think that I would be envisioning the same scenario. Since when did my argument get restricted to instances where someone has been confronted with their creepiness and refused to change? My argument is meant to encourage caution in the people here are considering experiences from their own lives and trying to determine who is and isn’t creepy, on a general overall sort of level, not to this very specific kind of instance that you mention.
On the contrary, I think the key is to consistently label nonconsensual taking of intimacies as “creepy” regardless of who does it. Treating “creepy” as an XML tag on people is a terrible idea — both for the “creeps” and for others. Declaring, “Some people are noncreepy” is vulnerable to exploitation by people who manage to get themselves labeled “noncreepy” and then go around assaulting people with impunity, knowing that their noncreepy tag will protect them from accusations: when someone says “Hey, Joe assaulted me!” others will respond, “He couldn’t have done that; he’s noncreepy!” That’s part of what the feminists call “rape culture”.
I don’t have a problem with that. My point is that some behaviors which aren’t “nonconsensual taking[s] of intimacies” are still associated with creepiness (some for good reason, even, like murdering cats or what have you) and that we need to check those behaviors for alternative explanations (maybe they have really really bad allergies [although probably not!]).
Taboo XML tag and say this again. Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
I think the position you argue against is roughly correct, actually. If there are behaviors and characteristics that strongly correlate with a lack of creepiness, it is logical to have a low prior probability on the judgement that someone with those characteristics will assault someone. For example, if someone is asexual or a child, then it’s incredibly likely that they aren’t a sexual predator. If someone is really nice and doesn’t stare at girls or do anything weird, they’re also probably not a predator. Yes, people can get around your best predictions, but that isn’t a reason to not make predictions in the first place, it’s just a reason to update when you get more evidence.
If Joe really isn’t creepy at all then he’s probably either innocent or a sociopath. If I knew Joe, and he seemed like a really nice guy, and he’s never said anything that seemed slightly disturbing, and he’d been perfectly normal his whole life, I wouldn’t just assume that he must be a rapist just because I heard a rumor somewhere. That would be dumb of me. The correct response is to gather more information, while for now going with your priors that say Joe is a-okay.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I thought we were both responding to the general topic; I didn’t mean to imply that you had that intention.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
Okay. This doesn’t clash with my position.
But the point is potentially relevant to any discussion where the label “creepy” is being applied.