On the contrary, I think the key is to consistently label nonconsensual taking of intimacies as “creepy” regardless of who does it.
I don’t have a problem with that. My point is that some behaviors which aren’t “nonconsensual taking[s] of intimacies” are still associated with creepiness (some for good reason, even, like murdering cats or what have you) and that we need to check those behaviors for alternative explanations (maybe they have really really bad allergies [although probably not!]).
Treating “creepy” as an XML tag on people is a terrible idea — both for the “creeps” and for others.
Taboo XML tag and say this again. Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
Declaring, “Some people are noncreepy” is vulnerable to exploitation by people who manage to get themselves labeled “noncreepy” and then go around assaulting people with impunity, knowing that their noncreepy tag will protect them from accusations: when someone says “Hey, Joe assaulted me!” others will respond “He couldn’t have done that; he’s noncreepy!” That’s part of what the feminists call “rape culture”.
I think the position you argue against is roughly correct, actually. If there are behaviors and characteristics that strongly correlate with a lack of creepiness, it is logical to have a low prior probability on the judgement that someone with those characteristics will assault someone. For example, if someone is asexual or a child, then it’s incredibly likely that they aren’t a sexual predator. If someone is really nice and doesn’t stare at girls or do anything weird, they’re also probably not a predator. Yes, people can get around your best predictions, but that isn’t a reason to not make predictions in the first place, it’s just a reason to update when you get more evidence.
If Joe really isn’t creepy at all then he’s probably either innocent or a sociopath. If I knew Joe, and he seemed like a really nice guy, and he’s never said anything that seemed slightly disturbing, and he’d been perfectly normal his whole life, I wouldn’t just assume that he must be a rapist just because I heard a rumor somewhere. That would be dumb of me. The correct response is to gather more information, while for now going with your priors that say Joe is a-okay.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I thought we were both responding to the general topic; I didn’t mean to imply that you had that intention.
Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
I don’t have a problem with that. My point is that some behaviors which aren’t “nonconsensual taking[s] of intimacies” are still associated with creepiness (some for good reason, even, like murdering cats or what have you) and that we need to check those behaviors for alternative explanations (maybe they have really really bad allergies [although probably not!]).
Taboo XML tag and say this again. Are you saying we shouldn’t have a concept of “creepy people” only a concept of “creepy behavior”? Because while that might work well in the abstract, in reality it’s important to predict how people will behave, which requires using labels and categories and heuristics.
I think the position you argue against is roughly correct, actually. If there are behaviors and characteristics that strongly correlate with a lack of creepiness, it is logical to have a low prior probability on the judgement that someone with those characteristics will assault someone. For example, if someone is asexual or a child, then it’s incredibly likely that they aren’t a sexual predator. If someone is really nice and doesn’t stare at girls or do anything weird, they’re also probably not a predator. Yes, people can get around your best predictions, but that isn’t a reason to not make predictions in the first place, it’s just a reason to update when you get more evidence.
If Joe really isn’t creepy at all then he’s probably either innocent or a sociopath. If I knew Joe, and he seemed like a really nice guy, and he’s never said anything that seemed slightly disturbing, and he’d been perfectly normal his whole life, I wouldn’t just assume that he must be a rapist just because I heard a rumor somewhere. That would be dumb of me. The correct response is to gather more information, while for now going with your priors that say Joe is a-okay.
I don’t like that you tried to stick me with defending rape culture, also. That’s just inflammatory.
I thought we were both responding to the general topic; I didn’t mean to imply that you had that intention.
Sure, but we need to check that these are grounded in reality. For instance, if conforming to a particular subcultural or class norm doesn’t actually correlate with being less likely to do bad behaviors X, Y, and Z, then we shouldn’t treat them like it does.
Okay. This doesn’t clash with my position.