I’m curious about the parenthetical; are there multiple words for Heaven, and this is the one that’s meant? Or there’s a generic word for Heaven that means lots of things, and here you think Sunzi is specifically referring to the climate?
天 refers to material things which affect you but which you yourself lack the power to significantly influence. The standard and most poetic translation of 天 is “heaven”, but 天 also includes the gods, fate, sky, weather, climate and all the other material things far above you. To the median person living today, 天 includes everything from the Federal Reserve to the orbit of Jupiter.
Many readers of Less Wrong come from a Western intellectual tradition where “heaven” is a moral immaterial Christian concept. I’m trying to draw attention to the fact that 天 is an amoral material relationship.
天 refers to material things which affect you but which you yourself lack the power to significantly influence.
I really like this phrasing!
Are there terms that split apart the level of abstraction on which the material thing exists? Like, I am affected by whether or not it’s raining right now, without being able to do much in return; I’m also affected by whether or not my currency is undergoing inflation, able to do even less in return, and I’m also affected by whether or not 13 is prime, able to do nothing in return. [My guess is the distinction between these didn’t really become crisp until this last century or so, and so probably there aren’t specific terms in classical Chinese.]
Practically, I’m interested in getting a sense of how much Sunzi’s distinction between Heaven and Earth is metaphorical vs. literal; in the first case, ‘heaven’ is about paying attention to things on a higher level of abstraction than the things ‘earth’ is directing you to pay attention to, in the second case, both of them are about the physical environment, but different parts of it (you need to make plans based on whether it rains or shines, and also you need to make plans based on whether there’s a hill or there isn’t).
Yes there is! The difference between 道 (Dao) and 天 (heaven) is a split along whether a thing physically exists. Dao can be interpreted to mean immaterial law including (but not limited to) abstract mathematics. In this interpretation, “whether or not 13 is prime” belongs to Dao. Rain and inflation exist under heaven[1].
The five aspects rank broadness of applicability. Broad ideas are more useful than narrow ideas. Concrete ideas are more useful than abstract ideas. Broadly applicable ideas are often highly abstract but the reverse is not necessarily true. The best ideas are both broad and concrete. Abstraction is a price you pay to buy generality.
It is a good heuristic to treat ambiguity in classical Chinese literature as deliberate. Sunzi’s distinction between Heaven and Earth isn’t metaphorical vs literal. It is metaphorical and literal.
天 means ‘heaven’ but also means ‘sky’ or ‘weather’. In context, ‘Heaven and Earth in your favor’ seems to want a literal, practically applicable interpretation, thus ‘weather and geography in your favor’. Though I don’t know much about Chinese literature, I think what’s going on here is:
(1) the deliberate double meaning with (a) the poetic ‘heaven and earth’ reading and (b) the practically applicable ‘weather and geography’ reading, and
(2) lsusr wants to make it clear to people that ‘weather and geography’ connect to the second third important aspects.
ETA: Oh, this question is probably related to edits made due to jimv’s comment below.
I’m curious about the parenthetical; are there multiple words for Heaven, and this is the one that’s meant? Or there’s a generic word for Heaven that means lots of things, and here you think Sunzi is specifically referring to the climate?
天 refers to material things which affect you but which you yourself lack the power to significantly influence. The standard and most poetic translation of 天 is “heaven”, but 天 also includes the gods, fate, sky, weather, climate and all the other material things far above you. To the median person living today, 天 includes everything from the Federal Reserve to the orbit of Jupiter.
Many readers of Less Wrong come from a Western intellectual tradition where “heaven” is a moral immaterial Christian concept. I’m trying to draw attention to the fact that 天 is an amoral material relationship.
I really like this phrasing!
Are there terms that split apart the level of abstraction on which the material thing exists? Like, I am affected by whether or not it’s raining right now, without being able to do much in return; I’m also affected by whether or not my currency is undergoing inflation, able to do even less in return, and I’m also affected by whether or not 13 is prime, able to do nothing in return. [My guess is the distinction between these didn’t really become crisp until this last century or so, and so probably there aren’t specific terms in classical Chinese.]
Practically, I’m interested in getting a sense of how much Sunzi’s distinction between Heaven and Earth is metaphorical vs. literal; in the first case, ‘heaven’ is about paying attention to things on a higher level of abstraction than the things ‘earth’ is directing you to pay attention to, in the second case, both of them are about the physical environment, but different parts of it (you need to make plans based on whether it rains or shines, and also you need to make plans based on whether there’s a hill or there isn’t).
Yes there is! The difference between 道 (Dao) and 天 (heaven) is a split along whether a thing physically exists. Dao can be interpreted to mean immaterial law including (but not limited to) abstract mathematics. In this interpretation, “whether or not 13 is prime” belongs to Dao. Rain and inflation exist under heaven[1].
The five aspects rank broadness of applicability. Broad ideas are more useful than narrow ideas. Concrete ideas are more useful than abstract ideas. Broadly applicable ideas are often highly abstract but the reverse is not necessarily true. The best ideas are both broad and concrete. Abstraction is a price you pay to buy generality.
It is a good heuristic to treat ambiguity in classical Chinese literature as deliberate. Sunzi’s distinction between Heaven and Earth isn’t metaphorical vs literal. It is metaphorical and literal.
This sentence is a play on words. The phrase “under heaven” refers to a specific Chinese cultural concept.
天 means ‘heaven’ but also means ‘sky’ or ‘weather’. In context, ‘Heaven and Earth in your favor’ seems to want a literal, practically applicable interpretation, thus ‘weather and geography in your favor’. Though I don’t know much about Chinese literature, I think what’s going on here is:
(1) the deliberate double meaning with (a) the poetic ‘heaven and earth’ reading and (b) the practically applicable ‘weather and geography’ reading, and
(2) lsusr wants to make it clear to people that ‘weather and geography’ connect to the second third important aspects.
ETA: Oh, this question is probably related to edits made due to jimv’s comment below.