Maybe other people have a very different image of meditation than I do, such that they imagine it as something much more delusional and hyperreligious? Eg, some religious people do stuff like chanting mantras, or visualizing specific images of Buddhist deities, which indeed seems pretty crazy to me.
But the kind of meditation taught by popular secular sources like Sam Harris’s Waking Up app, (or that I talk about in my “Examining The Witness” youtube series about the videogame The Witness), seems to me obviously much closer to basic psychology or rationality techniques than to religious practices. Compare Sam Harris’s instructions about paying attention to the contents of one’s experiences, to Gendlin’s idea of “Circling”, or Yudkowsky’s concept of “sit down and actually try to think of solutions for five minutes”, or the art of “noticing confusion”, or the original Feynman essay where he describes holding off on proposing solutions. So it’s weird to me when people seem really skeptical of meditation and set a very high burden of proof that they wouldn’t apply for other mental habits like, say, CFAR techniques.
I’m not like a meditation fanatic—personally I don’t even meditate these days, although I feel bad about not doing it since it does make my life better. (Just like how I don’t exercise much anymore despite exercise making my day go better, and I feel bad about that too...) But once upon a time I just tried it for a few weeks, learned a lot of interesting stuff, etc. I would say I got some mundane life benefits out of it—some, like exercise or good sleep, that only lasted as long as I kept up the habit. and other benefits were more like mental skills that I’ve retained to today. I also got some very worthwhile philosophical insights, which I talk about, albeit in a rambly way mixed in with lots of other stuff, in my aforementioned video series. I certainly wouldn’t say the philosophical insights were the most important thing in my whole life, or anything like that! But maybe more skilled deeper meditation = bigger insights, hence my agnosticism on whether the more bombastic metitation-related claims are true.
So I think people should just download the Waking Up app and try meditating for like 10 mins a day for 2-3 weeks or whatever—way less of a time commitment than watching a TV show or playing most videogames—and see for themselves if it’s useful or not, instead of debating.
Anyways. For what it’s worth, I googled “billionares who pray”. I found this article (https://www.beliefnet.com/entertainment/5-christian-billionaires-you-didnt-know-about.aspx), which ironically also cites Bill Gates, plus the Walton Family and some other conservative CEOs. But IMO, if you read the article you’ll notice that only one of them actually mentions a daily practice of prayer. The one that does, Do Won Chang, doesn’t credit it for their business success… seems like they’re successful and then they just also pray a lot. For the rest, it’s all vaguer stuff about how their religion gives them a general moral foundation of knowing what’s right and wrong, or how God inspires them to give back to their local community, or whatever.
So, personally I’d consider this duel of first-page-google-results to be a win for meditation versus prayer, since the meditators are describing a more direct relationship between scheduling time to regularly meditate and the assorted benefits they say it brings, while the prayer people are more describing how they think it’s valuable to be christian in an overall cultural sense. Although I’m sure with more effort you could find lots of assorted conservatives claiming that prayer specifically helps them with their business in some concrete way. (I’m sure there are many people who “pray” in ways that resemble meditation, or resemble Yudkowsky’s sitting-down-and-trying-to-think-of-solutions-for-five-minutes-by-the-clock, and find these techniques helpful!)
IMO, probably more convincing than dueling dubious claims of business titans, is testimony from rationalist-community members who write in detail about their experiences and reasoning. Alexey Guzey’s post here is interesting, as he’s swung from being vocally anti-meditation, to being way more into it than I ever was. He seems to still generally have his head on straight (ie hasn’t become a religious fanatic or something), and says that meditation seems to have been helpful for him in terms of getting more things done: https://guzey.com/2022-lessons/
Thanks for answering my question directly in the second half.
I find the testimonies of rationalists who experimented with meditation less convincing than perhaps I should, simply because of selection bias. People who have pre-existing affinity towards “woo” will presumably be more likely to try meditation. And they will be more likely to report that it works, whether it does or not. I am not sure how much should I discount for this, perhaps I overdo it. I don’t know.
A proper experiment would require a control group—some people who were originally skeptical about meditation and Buddhism in general, and only agreed to do some exactly defined exercises, and preferably the reported differences should be measurable somehow. Otherwise, we have another selection bias, that if there are people for whom meditation does nothing, or is even harmful, they will stop trying. So at the end, 100% of people who tried will report success (whether real or imaginary), because those who didn’t see any success have selected themselves out.
I approve of making the “secular version of Buddhism”, but in a similar way, we could make a “secular version of Christianity”. (For example, how is gratitude journaling significantly different from thanking God for all his blessing before you go sleep?) And yet, I assume that the objection against “secular Christianity” on Less Wrong would be much greater than against “secular Buddhism”. Maybe I am wrong, but the fact that no one is currently promoting “secular Christianity” on LW sounds like weak evidence. I suspect, the relevant difference is that for an American atheist, Christianity is outgroup, and Buddhism is fargroup. Meditation is culturally acceptable among contrarians, because our neighbors don’t do it. But that is unrelated to whether it works or not.
Also, I am not sure how secular the “secular Buddhism” actually is, given that people still go to retreats organized by religious people, etc. It feels too much for me to trust that someone is getting lots of important information from religious people, without unknowingly also getting some of their biases.
Maybe other people have a very different image of meditation than I do, such that they imagine it as something much more delusional and hyperreligious? Eg, some religious people do stuff like chanting mantras, or visualizing specific images of Buddhist deities, which indeed seems pretty crazy to me.
But the kind of meditation taught by popular secular sources like Sam Harris’s Waking Up app, (or that I talk about in my “Examining The Witness” youtube series about the videogame The Witness), seems to me obviously much closer to basic psychology or rationality techniques than to religious practices. Compare Sam Harris’s instructions about paying attention to the contents of one’s experiences, to Gendlin’s idea of “Circling”, or Yudkowsky’s concept of “sit down and actually try to think of solutions for five minutes”, or the art of “noticing confusion”, or the original Feynman essay where he describes holding off on proposing solutions. So it’s weird to me when people seem really skeptical of meditation and set a very high burden of proof that they wouldn’t apply for other mental habits like, say, CFAR techniques.
I’m not like a meditation fanatic—personally I don’t even meditate these days, although I feel bad about not doing it since it does make my life better. (Just like how I don’t exercise much anymore despite exercise making my day go better, and I feel bad about that too...) But once upon a time I just tried it for a few weeks, learned a lot of interesting stuff, etc. I would say I got some mundane life benefits out of it—some, like exercise or good sleep, that only lasted as long as I kept up the habit. and other benefits were more like mental skills that I’ve retained to today. I also got some very worthwhile philosophical insights, which I talk about, albeit in a rambly way mixed in with lots of other stuff, in my aforementioned video series. I certainly wouldn’t say the philosophical insights were the most important thing in my whole life, or anything like that! But maybe more skilled deeper meditation = bigger insights, hence my agnosticism on whether the more bombastic metitation-related claims are true.
So I think people should just download the Waking Up app and try meditating for like 10 mins a day for 2-3 weeks or whatever—way less of a time commitment than watching a TV show or playing most videogames—and see for themselves if it’s useful or not, instead of debating.
Anyways. For what it’s worth, I googled “billionares who pray”. I found this article (https://www.beliefnet.com/entertainment/5-christian-billionaires-you-didnt-know-about.aspx), which ironically also cites Bill Gates, plus the Walton Family and some other conservative CEOs. But IMO, if you read the article you’ll notice that only one of them actually mentions a daily practice of prayer. The one that does, Do Won Chang, doesn’t credit it for their business success… seems like they’re successful and then they just also pray a lot. For the rest, it’s all vaguer stuff about how their religion gives them a general moral foundation of knowing what’s right and wrong, or how God inspires them to give back to their local community, or whatever.
So, personally I’d consider this duel of first-page-google-results to be a win for meditation versus prayer, since the meditators are describing a more direct relationship between scheduling time to regularly meditate and the assorted benefits they say it brings, while the prayer people are more describing how they think it’s valuable to be christian in an overall cultural sense. Although I’m sure with more effort you could find lots of assorted conservatives claiming that prayer specifically helps them with their business in some concrete way. (I’m sure there are many people who “pray” in ways that resemble meditation, or resemble Yudkowsky’s sitting-down-and-trying-to-think-of-solutions-for-five-minutes-by-the-clock, and find these techniques helpful!)
IMO, probably more convincing than dueling dubious claims of business titans, is testimony from rationalist-community members who write in detail about their experiences and reasoning. Alexey Guzey’s post here is interesting, as he’s swung from being vocally anti-meditation, to being way more into it than I ever was. He seems to still generally have his head on straight (ie hasn’t become a religious fanatic or something), and says that meditation seems to have been helpful for him in terms of getting more things done: https://guzey.com/2022-lessons/
Thanks for answering my question directly in the second half.
I find the testimonies of rationalists who experimented with meditation less convincing than perhaps I should, simply because of selection bias. People who have pre-existing affinity towards “woo” will presumably be more likely to try meditation. And they will be more likely to report that it works, whether it does or not. I am not sure how much should I discount for this, perhaps I overdo it. I don’t know.
A proper experiment would require a control group—some people who were originally skeptical about meditation and Buddhism in general, and only agreed to do some exactly defined exercises, and preferably the reported differences should be measurable somehow. Otherwise, we have another selection bias, that if there are people for whom meditation does nothing, or is even harmful, they will stop trying. So at the end, 100% of people who tried will report success (whether real or imaginary), because those who didn’t see any success have selected themselves out.
I approve of making the “secular version of Buddhism”, but in a similar way, we could make a “secular version of Christianity”. (For example, how is gratitude journaling significantly different from thanking God for all his blessing before you go sleep?) And yet, I assume that the objection against “secular Christianity” on Less Wrong would be much greater than against “secular Buddhism”. Maybe I am wrong, but the fact that no one is currently promoting “secular Christianity” on LW sounds like weak evidence. I suspect, the relevant difference is that for an American atheist, Christianity is outgroup, and Buddhism is fargroup. Meditation is culturally acceptable among contrarians, because our neighbors don’t do it. But that is unrelated to whether it works or not.
Also, I am not sure how secular the “secular Buddhism” actually is, given that people still go to retreats organized by religious people, etc. It feels too much for me to trust that someone is getting lots of important information from religious people, without unknowingly also getting some of their biases.