Raemon, this is really great. As a lay leader of a Unitarian Universalist congregation, I love what you say about the importance of ritual—it can be strongly affecting, and can motivate people to action they might not otherwise take. If we can construct rituals that inspire and invigorate, without misleading, then that is a win.
I’d suggest that when doing this kind of ritual, we should invite guests who are almost-but-not-quite in the rationalist camp. It can be a tool to attract new minds.
I will try to do a similar event at my church next year. We have quite a few atheists and fellow travelers, so I think it will work well. And maybe there will be further opportunities for rational ritual during the year—other noteworthy astronomical events, perhaps. Or maybe when Nobels are announced.
Also, IMO it took guts to bring this to the LW community. So kudos for that, too.
Also, IMO it took guts to bring this to the LW community. So kudos for that, too.
I expect this is wrong both as a model of the community and of Raemon’s model of the community. Appearances don’t matter, and psychological effects do.
Yeah. I did expect most of the community to react more or less as they have. However, I did also expect there to be a minority of people who were upset by this, or at least mildly annoyed. I do honestly want that silent minority to speak up so I know what the costs of this are. It will inform how far I push in this direction, both publicly and privately.
I do honestly want that silent minority to speak up so I know what the costs of this are.
Well, OK, since you asked… while small doses of it aren’t worth the costs of objecting to, to the extent that the site as a whole moves in the direction of discussing bonding rituals and similar community-for-the-sake-of-community activities, the site becomes less valuable to me.
If, after a few initial articles to explain what I’m doing and why, this became something organized by private meetups, would that still bother you?
What if it took place only in the discussion section? (Perhaps, only to say: “hey guys, want to come to another forum/mailing-list where we can collaborate on this?”)
The discussions themselves don’t bother me, it’s more that I fear the dynamic where devoting energy to community-building becomes a self-perpetuating runaway process that distorts or steals the oxygen from everything else. I know there’s a point where that happens, but I have no idea where the threshold is.
That said, my best guess is that treating these ritual sessions as a special case of meetups is relatively harmless.
It is honestly frustrating that every time anyone asks you “Why don’t you think this a bad idea, like I do?” you respond with “I will justify myself later; for now, go along with it and do not object.”
This bothers me as much as or more than the ritual stuff itself does. If you decide it’s a good idea to do something and then ignore all criticism of it until you actually do it, this has a good chance of ending up with you ignoring all criticism ever. Once you’ve actually pulled this off, you are a lot more resistant to the thought that it might not have been worth doing to begin with.
And much as I don’t want to see discussion of the ritual activities again, if you take that discussion somewhere else all the issues with criticism will only get worse.
To be honest, after typing this up and reflecting on it once again, I’m beginning to consider the secondary hypothesis that you’re deliberately mindkilling yourself to avoid ever being convinced that you are wrong.
I’m not responding to criticism in detail yet because I am honestly in the process of writing a detailed article that addresses all these concerns at once, in a more coherent manner than I can do responding to a bunch of individual posts.
I am soliciting criticism now in case there are potential issues that I haven’t thought about yet. My intent is NOT “do not object.” I want you to object. I am dealing with dangerous forces and I want to know about as many factors as possible. I’ve thought about some, but I’m sure there are more reasons to be afraid and many specific examples of the more abstract concerns I’ve thought about.
I am fairly confident that when all is said and done, I will still believe this is a good idea. I am open to persuasion otherwise, if people have concrete concerns that I can’t address. But I will also be making the case that this is not just fun but genuinely important, and I think you should at least be open to that possibility.
I haven’t read it until just now. My initial thought is that you’ve given this enough thought that you might be right, and I have to think about it some more. This thinking is probably going to end up coinciding with thinking if I want to stop reading and posting here (which I might do even if you are correct overall—it’s possible that the presence of people with my mindset, if there’s not too many of us, is insignificant enough that it falls neatly into your cost-benefit analysis).
Anyway, thank you for pointing me to your post, I appreciate it and the fact that you obviously did pay attention to my criticism even if it was not always generously worded.
Raemon, this is really great. As a lay leader of a Unitarian Universalist congregation, I love what you say about the importance of ritual—it can be strongly affecting, and can motivate people to action they might not otherwise take. If we can construct rituals that inspire and invigorate, without misleading, then that is a win.
I’d suggest that when doing this kind of ritual, we should invite guests who are almost-but-not-quite in the rationalist camp. It can be a tool to attract new minds.
I will try to do a similar event at my church next year. We have quite a few atheists and fellow travelers, so I think it will work well. And maybe there will be further opportunities for rational ritual during the year—other noteworthy astronomical events, perhaps. Or maybe when Nobels are announced.
Also, IMO it took guts to bring this to the LW community. So kudos for that, too.
I expect this is wrong both as a model of the community and of Raemon’s model of the community. Appearances don’t matter, and psychological effects do.
Noted. I’ll try to update accordingly.
Yeah. I did expect most of the community to react more or less as they have. However, I did also expect there to be a minority of people who were upset by this, or at least mildly annoyed. I do honestly want that silent minority to speak up so I know what the costs of this are. It will inform how far I push in this direction, both publicly and privately.
Well, OK, since you asked… while small doses of it aren’t worth the costs of objecting to, to the extent that the site as a whole moves in the direction of discussing bonding rituals and similar community-for-the-sake-of-community activities, the site becomes less valuable to me.
If, after a few initial articles to explain what I’m doing and why, this became something organized by private meetups, would that still bother you?
What if it took place only in the discussion section? (Perhaps, only to say: “hey guys, want to come to another forum/mailing-list where we can collaborate on this?”)
The most honest answer is that I don’t know.
The discussions themselves don’t bother me, it’s more that I fear the dynamic where devoting energy to community-building becomes a self-perpetuating runaway process that distorts or steals the oxygen from everything else. I know there’s a point where that happens, but I have no idea where the threshold is.
That said, my best guess is that treating these ritual sessions as a special case of meetups is relatively harmless.
Thank you for the input.
It is honestly frustrating that every time anyone asks you “Why don’t you think this a bad idea, like I do?” you respond with “I will justify myself later; for now, go along with it and do not object.”
This bothers me as much as or more than the ritual stuff itself does. If you decide it’s a good idea to do something and then ignore all criticism of it until you actually do it, this has a good chance of ending up with you ignoring all criticism ever. Once you’ve actually pulled this off, you are a lot more resistant to the thought that it might not have been worth doing to begin with.
And much as I don’t want to see discussion of the ritual activities again, if you take that discussion somewhere else all the issues with criticism will only get worse.
To be honest, after typing this up and reflecting on it once again, I’m beginning to consider the secondary hypothesis that you’re deliberately mindkilling yourself to avoid ever being convinced that you are wrong.
I’m not responding to criticism in detail yet because I am honestly in the process of writing a detailed article that addresses all these concerns at once, in a more coherent manner than I can do responding to a bunch of individual posts.
I am soliciting criticism now in case there are potential issues that I haven’t thought about yet. My intent is NOT “do not object.” I want you to object. I am dealing with dangerous forces and I want to know about as many factors as possible. I’ve thought about some, but I’m sure there are more reasons to be afraid and many specific examples of the more abstract concerns I’ve thought about.
I am fairly confident that when all is said and done, I will still believe this is a good idea. I am open to persuasion otherwise, if people have concrete concerns that I can’t address. But I will also be making the case that this is not just fun but genuinely important, and I think you should at least be open to that possibility.
I was curious if you’d read the followup post, and if your opinion had updated in any noteworthy direction.
I haven’t read it until just now. My initial thought is that you’ve given this enough thought that you might be right, and I have to think about it some more. This thinking is probably going to end up coinciding with thinking if I want to stop reading and posting here (which I might do even if you are correct overall—it’s possible that the presence of people with my mindset, if there’s not too many of us, is insignificant enough that it falls neatly into your cost-benefit analysis).
Anyway, thank you for pointing me to your post, I appreciate it and the fact that you obviously did pay attention to my criticism even if it was not always generously worded.