Rape is very often not violent, and there are many contexts where it wouldn’t be thought degrading by the victim or by the culture, such as marital rape in a culture where it’s considered normal.
Consensual degrading and violent sex is certainly kinky, but not necessarily a kind of kink that counts as BDSM and certainly not necessarily rape play. (I feel like I should be making innuendo here about developing your imagination or something.) The “cunnilingus and cuddles” feminist crowd probably don’t think it can truly be consensual, but they’re just obviously wrong; people might be brainwashed by the patriarchy to go along with something their partner wants, but not to seek it out secretly.
Rape is very often not violent, and there are many contexts where it wouldn’t be thought degrading by the victim or by the culture, such as marital rape in a culture where it’s considered normal.
Excellent points.
Consensual degrading and violent sex is certainly kinky, but not necessarily a kind of kink that counts as BDSM and certainly not necessarily rape play. (I feel like I should be making innuendo here about developing your imagination or something.)
Even if the word “rape” isn’t being used, it seems to me—and this may be a failure of imagination—that it nonetheless simulates rape, or at least something close to it.
people might be brainwashed by the patriarchy to go along with something their partner wants, but not to seek it out secretly.
Even if the word “rape” isn’t being used, it seems to me—and this may be a failure of imagination—that it nonetheless simulates rape, or at least something close to it.
There’s some nitpicking to be done about precise definitions of “degrading” and “violent”.
It seems fair to describe any pain play (at least if sufficiently intense and fast) as violent. And handing one’s date a flogger with a grin and a “Pretty please?” doesn’t look much like rape at all.
Here’s an example of very degrading sex that’s not rape play either. (The domme gives orders to the sub, and there’s one act the sub is reluctant to perform, but throughout the scene the sub expresses consent verbally and physically.) This story is extremely gross porn; there are two characters; the domme is a crossdressing woman; the sub is a woman; seriously I mean the “gross” part, you have been warned: Piggy, by Jen Cross.
It might be fair to classify all reluctance play as “simulating something close to rape” (e.g. “Stop hitting me”), and even anything involving restraints if you’re being very inclusive, but if someone’s begging to be hurt and to do something degrading (and there’s no roleplay where they’re being forced to or anything) I don’t see the resemblance.
people might be brainwashed by the patriarchy to go along with something their partner wants, but not to seek it out secretly.
You sure about that?
Nope! I just dismiss it as a Cartesian demon hypothesis. If you’re going to question what someone’s sincere introspection tells them they want when they think about it alone and at leisure and they never have to tell anyone about it, you might as well question your own impulse to question things; are you brainwashed by the patriarchy into slut-shaming women who have sex you don’t like, or into denying women’s agency, or into erasing female desire? Any amount of introspection that’s sufficient for you to decide you aren’t should also suffice for the person whose desires you’re questioning.
And if you’re not just questioning patriarchy-approved activities like intercourse and leg-shaving and slut-shaming, but also fetishes patriarchal thinking condemns as weird, you’d better also question your love of cunnilingus and cuddles and bra-burning.
Here’s an example of very degrading sex that’s not rape play either. (The domme gives orders to the sub, and there’s one act the sub is reluctant to perform, but throughout the scene the sub expresses consent verbally and physically.) This story is extremely gross porn; there are two characters; the domme is a crossdressing woman; the sub is a woman; seriously I mean the “gross” part, you have been warned: Piggy, by Jen Cross.
I didn’t read the story based on your warning and the fact that you gave a … synopsis … that seemed sufficient.
I think I see your point; it does seem possible that sex could independently be violent and degrading, for most values of “violent” and “degrading”, without utilizing rape play, although that would seem to be the easiest route.
It might be fair to classify all reluctance play as “simulating something close to rape” (e.g. “Stop hitting me”), and even anything involving restraints if you’re being very inclusive
That’s basically what I was thinking of.
if someone’s begging to be hurt and to do something degrading (and there’s no roleplay where they’re being forced to or anything)
Funny thing, but I seems to have been thinking that “degrading” meant nonconsensual. Which is stupid, now that I think of it. I guess “degrading” is an ambiguous term, come to think.
Even if the word “rape” isn’t being used, it seems to me—and this may be a failure of imagination—that it nonetheless simulates rape, or at least something close to it.
Yes, it simulates something close to it, but I think the two-step distinction is enough that avoiding the word “rape” and its connotations is very appropriate. The “degrading and violent” taps into certain emotions, but lacks certain key other emotions and characteristics that make rape so bad and hurtful. To name some, the helplessness feeling is most likely not present (since it’s consensual, as stated), and the whole existential crisis that is triggered by the emotional cascade and status markers and mental model updates that all happen at the same time during or in the aftermath. The trauma oft associated with “rape” seems to come mostly from those missing elements, so I wouldn’t include this in my carving.
(...) people might be brainwashed by the patriarchy to go along with something their partner wants, but not to seek it out secretly.
You sure about that?
I’m actually thinking that the reverse is more likely true: People can (and probably are) be brainwashed by culture/patriarchy to secretly seek out something.
I see no reason why they couldn’t, and I feel like I could draw a graph of at least one plausible way it could happen if I put some brain time into it.
Yes, it simulates something close to it, but I think the two-step distinction is enough that avoiding the word “rape” and its connotations is very appropriate. The “degrading and violent” taps into certain emotions, but lacks certain key other emotions and characteristics that make rape so bad and hurtful. To name some, the helplessness feeling is most likely not present (since it’s consensual, as stated), and the whole existential crisis that is triggered by the emotional cascade and status markers and mental model updates that all happen at the same time during or in the aftermath. The trauma oft associated with “rape” seems to come mostly from those missing elements, so I wouldn’t include this in my carving.
Obviously, there is a distinction between rape and BSDM play that simulates rape. Still, the claim that all penetrative sex is either rape or an attempt to capture certain emotional elements of rape seems very close to the statement that all penetrative sex is actual rape.
Still, the claim that all penetrative sex is either rape or an attempt to capture certain emotional elements of rape seems very close to the statement that all penetrative sex is actual rape.
Oh wow… I’ve failed my Psychometric Tracery. I didn’t think that was the actual claim being discussed. I find it to be a very silly claim; this makes me all the more curious to hear their rationale for it.
This discussion has stretched on pretty long … and I can hardly object to someone pointing out that a specific claim was wrong just because it doesn’t refute my original point.
For reference, this particular argument started with this comment.
That distinction seems pretty fine; “degrading and violent sex” sounds a hell of a lot like rape (or perhaps some BSDM simulating rape, I guess.)
Rape is very often not violent, and there are many contexts where it wouldn’t be thought degrading by the victim or by the culture, such as marital rape in a culture where it’s considered normal.
Consensual degrading and violent sex is certainly kinky, but not necessarily a kind of kink that counts as BDSM and certainly not necessarily rape play. (I feel like I should be making innuendo here about developing your imagination or something.) The “cunnilingus and cuddles” feminist crowd probably don’t think it can truly be consensual, but they’re just obviously wrong; people might be brainwashed by the patriarchy to go along with something their partner wants, but not to seek it out secretly.
Excellent points.
Even if the word “rape” isn’t being used, it seems to me—and this may be a failure of imagination—that it nonetheless simulates rape, or at least something close to it.
You sure about that?
Thanks.
There’s some nitpicking to be done about precise definitions of “degrading” and “violent”.
It seems fair to describe any pain play (at least if sufficiently intense and fast) as violent. And handing one’s date a flogger with a grin and a “Pretty please?” doesn’t look much like rape at all.
Here’s an example of very degrading sex that’s not rape play either. (The domme gives orders to the sub, and there’s one act the sub is reluctant to perform, but throughout the scene the sub expresses consent verbally and physically.) This story is extremely gross porn; there are two characters; the domme is a crossdressing woman; the sub is a woman; seriously I mean the “gross” part, you have been warned: Piggy, by Jen Cross.
It might be fair to classify all reluctance play as “simulating something close to rape” (e.g. “Stop hitting me”), and even anything involving restraints if you’re being very inclusive, but if someone’s begging to be hurt and to do something degrading (and there’s no roleplay where they’re being forced to or anything) I don’t see the resemblance.
Nope! I just dismiss it as a Cartesian demon hypothesis. If you’re going to question what someone’s sincere introspection tells them they want when they think about it alone and at leisure and they never have to tell anyone about it, you might as well question your own impulse to question things; are you brainwashed by the patriarchy into slut-shaming women who have sex you don’t like, or into denying women’s agency, or into erasing female desire? Any amount of introspection that’s sufficient for you to decide you aren’t should also suffice for the person whose desires you’re questioning.
And if you’re not just questioning patriarchy-approved activities like intercourse and leg-shaving and slut-shaming, but also fetishes patriarchal thinking condemns as weird, you’d better also question your love of cunnilingus and cuddles and bra-burning.
I didn’t read the story based on your warning and the fact that you gave a … synopsis … that seemed sufficient.
I think I see your point; it does seem possible that sex could independently be violent and degrading, for most values of “violent” and “degrading”, without utilizing rape play, although that would seem to be the easiest route.
That’s basically what I was thinking of.
Funny thing, but I seems to have been thinking that “degrading” meant nonconsensual. Which is stupid, now that I think of it. I guess “degrading” is an ambiguous term, come to think.
Yes, it simulates something close to it, but I think the two-step distinction is enough that avoiding the word “rape” and its connotations is very appropriate. The “degrading and violent” taps into certain emotions, but lacks certain key other emotions and characteristics that make rape so bad and hurtful. To name some, the helplessness feeling is most likely not present (since it’s consensual, as stated), and the whole existential crisis that is triggered by the emotional cascade and status markers and mental model updates that all happen at the same time during or in the aftermath. The trauma oft associated with “rape” seems to come mostly from those missing elements, so I wouldn’t include this in my carving.
I’m actually thinking that the reverse is more likely true: People can (and probably are) be brainwashed by culture/patriarchy to secretly seek out something.
I see no reason why they couldn’t, and I feel like I could draw a graph of at least one plausible way it could happen if I put some brain time into it.
Obviously, there is a distinction between rape and BSDM play that simulates rape. Still, the claim that all penetrative sex is either rape or an attempt to capture certain emotional elements of rape seems very close to the statement that all penetrative sex is actual rape.
Oh wow… I’ve failed my Psychometric Tracery. I didn’t think that was the actual claim being discussed. I find it to be a very silly claim; this makes me all the more curious to hear their rationale for it.
This discussion has stretched on pretty long … and I can hardly object to someone pointing out that a specific claim was wrong just because it doesn’t refute my original point.
For reference, this particular argument started with this comment.