One of my biggest learning experiences over the last few years was moving to the Bay Area, and attempting to be accepted into the “Rationality Tribe”.
When I first took my CFAR workshop years ago, and interacted with the people in the group, I was enamored. A group of people who was into saving the world, self-improvement, understanding their own minds, connecting with others—I felt like I had found my people.
A few short months later I moved to the Bay Area.
I had never been good at joining groups or tribes. From a very early age, I made my friend group (sometimes very small) by finding solid individuals that could connect to my particular brand of manic, ambitious, and open, and bringing them together through my own events and hangouts.
In Portland, where I was before moving to the Bay, I really felt I had a handle on this, meeting people at events (knowing there weren’t many who would connect with me in Portland), then regularly hosting my own events like dinner parties and meetups to bring together the best people.
Anyway, when I got to the Bay, I for the first time tried really hard to be accepted into existing tribes. Not only did I finally think I had found a large group of people I would fit in with, I was also operating under the assumption that I needed to be liked by all these peoples because they were allies in changing the world for the better.
And honestly, this made me miserable. While I did find a few solid people I really enjoyed, trying to be liked and accepted by the majority of people in the rationality community was an exercise in frustration—Being popular has always run counter to my ability to express myself honestly and openly, and I kept having to bounce between the two choices.
And the thing is, I would go as far as to say many people in the rationality community experience this same frustration. They found a group that they feel like should be their tribe, but they really don’t feel a close connection to most people in it, and feel alienated as a result.
What feels real to me is that there are people in the rationality community that I like, and love. And there are people outside of the rationality community that I like and love. And that it makes a lot of sense for me to stop trying to bounce from round hole to round hole, trying to see if my square peg fits in.
Instead, like always, I’ll just make my island, and invite the people who want to be there with me.
Being a rationalist is not the only trait the individual rationalists have. Other traits may prevent you from clicking with them. There may be traits frequent in the Bay Area that are unpleasant to you.
Also, being an aspiring rationalist is not a binary thing. Some people try harder, some only join for the social experience. Assuming that the base rate of people “trying things hard” is very low, I would expect that even among people who identify as rationalists, the majority is there only for the social reasons. If you try to fit in with the group as a whole, it means you will mostly try to fit in with these people. But if you are not there primarily for social reasons, that is already one thing that will make you not fit in. (By the way, no disrespect meant here. Most of people who identify as rationalists only for social reasons are very nice people.)
What you could do, in my opinion, is find a subgroup you feel comfortable with, and accept that this is the natural state of things. Also, speaking as an introvert, I can more easily connect with individuals than with groups. The group is simply a place where I can find such individuals with greater frequency, and conveniently meet more of them at the same place.
Or—as you wrote—you could create such subgroup around yourself. Hopefully, it will be easier in the Bay Area than it would be otherwise.
What you could do, in my opinion, is find a subgroup you feel comfortable with, and accept that this is the natural state of things.
I’m pretty pessimistic about this, it’s never worked for me before, nor did I I find any existing subgroup in the rationality community that I could do this.
Or—as you wrote—you could create such subgroup around yourself.
Definitely, but why limit it to just rationalists in that case?
Hopefully, it will be easier in the Bay Area than it would be otherwise.
Speaking as a Bay Area native,[1] I would not use the word “hopefully” here!
(One would hope to find or create a subgroup, but it would be nicer if it were possible to do this somewhere with less-insane housing prices and ambientculture. Hoping that it needs to be done here on account of just having moved here would be the sunk cost fallacy.)
Note that as someone who has up and moved multiple times, I can assure you that it’s possible to make friends in other cities. If you’ve never moved out of your home city, I recommend doing it at least once, for a few years, even if you move back at the end.
I’m curious how much of this you attribute to (the following random hypotheses I just formed, as well as any other hypotheses you have):
tribal integration being generally hard
Bay rationalists being particular bad at Tribal/friendship
Bay rationalists not having enough social infrastructure, or other problems distinct from “bad at Tribal” (i.e. I think the math may just not work out for many friends you can expect to make quickly, and how much help you’ll have making friends)
specific (possibly subtle) differences from the culture-you-wanted and the culture-that-was-there. (i.e. you pushing for changes or having opinions that ran against the status quo)
Are you asking about my particular realization here, or this part:
And the thing is, I would go as far as to say many people in the rationality community experience this same frustration. They found a group that they feel like should be their tribe, but they really don’t feel a close connection to most people in it, and feel alienated as a result.
Hmm, either I guess. It definitely looks like there are some kind of issues in this space that I’d like to help the Bay community improve at, but am not sure what kind of improvements are tractable and am trying to just get a better shape of the situation.
I personally just am not really made to fit into communities, I do a much better job building my own.
I’d say that in my particular case, this issue screens off a lot of the other issues.
In the case of the Bay Area rationality as a whole, I think that in general it does a fairly bad job of being a friendly community for people who want to join communities, some of the causes of this seem to be (in no particular order)
High levels of autism and autism spectrum disorder.
And the thing is, I would go as far as to say many people in the rationality community experience this same frustration. They found a group that they feel like should be their tribe, but they really don’t feel a close connection to most people in it, and feel alienated as a result.
As someone who has considered making the Pilgrimmage To The Bay for precisely that reason and as someone who decided against it partly due to that particular concern, I thank you for giving me a data-point on it.
Being a rationalist in the real worldtm can be hard. The set of people who actually worry about saving the world, understanding their own minds and connecting with others is pretty low. In my bubble at least, picking a random hobby and incidentally becoming friends with someone at it and then incidentally getting slammed and incidentally an impromptu conversation has been the best performing strategy so far in terms of success per opportunity-cost. As a result, looking from the outside at a rationalist community that cares about all these things looks like a fantastical life-changing ideal.
But, from the outside view, all the people I’ve seen who’ve aggressively targeted those ideals have gotten crushed. So I’ve adopted a strategy of Not Doing That.
(pssst: this doesn’t just apply to the rationalist community! it applies to any community oriented around values disproportionately held by individuals who have been disenfranchised by broader society in any way! there are a lot of implications here and they’re all mildly depressing!)
FITTING IN AND THE RATIONALITY COMMUNITY
One of my biggest learning experiences over the last few years was moving to the Bay Area, and attempting to be accepted into the “Rationality Tribe”.
When I first took my CFAR workshop years ago, and interacted with the people in the group, I was enamored. A group of people who was into saving the world, self-improvement, understanding their own minds, connecting with others—I felt like I had found my people.
A few short months later I moved to the Bay Area.
I had never been good at joining groups or tribes. From a very early age, I made my friend group (sometimes very small) by finding solid individuals that could connect to my particular brand of manic, ambitious, and open, and bringing them together through my own events and hangouts.
In Portland, where I was before moving to the Bay, I really felt I had a handle on this, meeting people at events (knowing there weren’t many who would connect with me in Portland), then regularly hosting my own events like dinner parties and meetups to bring together the best people.
Anyway, when I got to the Bay, I for the first time tried really hard to be accepted into existing tribes. Not only did I finally think I had found a large group of people I would fit in with, I was also operating under the assumption that I needed to be liked by all these peoples because they were allies in changing the world for the better.
And honestly, this made me miserable. While I did find a few solid people I really enjoyed, trying to be liked and accepted by the majority of people in the rationality community was an exercise in frustration—Being popular has always run counter to my ability to express myself honestly and openly, and I kept having to bounce between the two choices.
And the thing is, I would go as far as to say many people in the rationality community experience this same frustration. They found a group that they feel like should be their tribe, but they really don’t feel a close connection to most people in it, and feel alienated as a result.
What feels real to me is that there are people in the rationality community that I like, and love. And there are people outside of the rationality community that I like and love. And that it makes a lot of sense for me to stop trying to bounce from round hole to round hole, trying to see if my square peg fits in.
Instead, like always, I’ll just make my island, and invite the people who want to be there with me.
Being a rationalist is not the only trait the individual rationalists have. Other traits may prevent you from clicking with them. There may be traits frequent in the Bay Area that are unpleasant to you.
Also, being an aspiring rationalist is not a binary thing. Some people try harder, some only join for the social experience. Assuming that the base rate of people “trying things hard” is very low, I would expect that even among people who identify as rationalists, the majority is there only for the social reasons. If you try to fit in with the group as a whole, it means you will mostly try to fit in with these people. But if you are not there primarily for social reasons, that is already one thing that will make you not fit in. (By the way, no disrespect meant here. Most of people who identify as rationalists only for social reasons are very nice people.)
What you could do, in my opinion, is find a subgroup you feel comfortable with, and accept that this is the natural state of things. Also, speaking as an introvert, I can more easily connect with individuals than with groups. The group is simply a place where I can find such individuals with greater frequency, and conveniently meet more of them at the same place.
Or—as you wrote—you could create such subgroup around yourself. Hopefully, it will be easier in the Bay Area than it would be otherwise.
I’m pretty pessimistic about this, it’s never worked for me before, nor did I I find any existing subgroup in the rationality community that I could do this.
Definitely, but why limit it to just rationalists in that case?
Good point.
Not sure how well a mixed group of rationalists and non-rationalists would function. But you could create more than one group.
Speaking as a Bay Area native,[1] I would not use the word “hopefully” here!
(One would hope to find or create a subgroup, but it would be nicer if it were possible to do this somewhere with less-insane housing prices and ambient culture. Hoping that it needs to be done here on account of just having moved here would be the sunk cost fallacy.)
Raised in Walnut Creek, presently in Berkeley.
Note that as someone who has up and moved multiple times, I can assure you that it’s possible to make friends in other cities. If you’ve never moved out of your home city, I recommend doing it at least once, for a few years, even if you move back at the end.
I’m curious how much of this you attribute to (the following random hypotheses I just formed, as well as any other hypotheses you have):
tribal integration being generally hard
Bay rationalists being particular bad at Tribal/friendship
Bay rationalists not having enough social infrastructure, or other problems distinct from “bad at Tribal” (i.e. I think the math may just not work out for many friends you can expect to make quickly, and how much help you’ll have making friends)
specific (possibly subtle) differences from the culture-you-wanted and the culture-that-was-there. (i.e. you pushing for changes or having opinions that ran against the status quo)
Are you asking about my particular realization here, or this part:
?
Hmm, either I guess. It definitely looks like there are some kind of issues in this space that I’d like to help the Bay community improve at, but am not sure what kind of improvements are tractable and am trying to just get a better shape of the situation.
Some thoughts on this:
I personally just am not really made to fit into communities, I do a much better job building my own.
I’d say that in my particular case, this issue screens off a lot of the other issues.
In the case of the Bay Area rationality as a whole, I think that in general it does a fairly bad job of being a friendly community for people who want to join communities, some of the causes of this seem to be (in no particular order)
High levels of autism and autism spectrum disorder.
A large gender imbalance.
Weird status dynamics.
As someone who has considered making the Pilgrimmage To The Bay for precisely that reason and as someone who decided against it partly due to that particular concern, I thank you for giving me a data-point on it.
Being a rationalist in the real worldtm can be hard. The set of people who actually worry about saving the world, understanding their own minds and connecting with others is pretty low. In my bubble at least, picking a random hobby and incidentally becoming friends with someone at it and then incidentally getting slammed and incidentally an impromptu conversation has been the best performing strategy so far in terms of success per opportunity-cost. As a result, looking from the outside at a rationalist community that cares about all these things looks like a fantastical life-changing ideal.
But, from the outside view, all the people I’ve seen who’ve aggressively targeted those ideals have gotten crushed. So I’ve adopted a strategy of Not Doing That.
(pssst: this doesn’t just apply to the rationalist community! it applies to any community oriented around values disproportionately held by individuals who have been disenfranchised by broader society in any way! there are a lot of implications here and they’re all mildly depressing!)