If we assume some kind of mathematical realism (which seems to be necessary for “abstract computation” and “uniqueness” to have any meaning) then there exist objectively true statements and computations that generate them. At some point there are Goedelian problems, but at least all of the computations agree on the primitive-recursive truths, which are therefore universal, objective, unique, and true.
Any rational agent (optimization process) in any world with some regularities would exploit these regularities, which means use math. A reflective self-optimizing rational agent would arrive to the same math as us, because the math is unique.
Of course, all these points are made by a fallible human brain and so may be wrong.
But there is nothing even like that for morality. In fact, when a moral statement seems universal under sufficient reflection, it stops being a moral statement and becomes simply rational, like cooperating in the Prisoner’s Dilemma when playing against the right opponents.
But there is nothing even like that for morality. In fact, when a moral statement seems universal under sufficient reflection, it stops being a moral statement and becomes simply rational, like cooperating in the Prisoner’s Dilemma when playing against the right opponents.
What is the distinction you are making between rationality and morality, then? What makes you think the former won’t be swallowed up by the latter (or vice versa!) in the limit of infinite reflection?
(Sorta drunk, apologies for conflating conflation of rationality and morality with lack of conflation of rationality and morality, probabilistically-shouldly.)
ETA: I don’t understand how my comments can be so awesome when I’m obviously so freakin’ drunk. ;P . Maybe I should get drunk all the freakin’ time. Or study Latin all the freakin’ time, or read the Bible all the freakin’ time, or ponder how often people are obviously wrong when they use the phrase “all the freakin’ time” (let alone “freakin[‘]”) (especially when they use the phrase “all the freakin’ time” all the freakin’ time, naturally-because-reflexively)....
What is the distinction you are making between rationality and morality, then? What makes you think the former won’t be swallowed up by the latter (or vice versa!) in the limit of infinite reflection?
That was the distinction—one is universal, another arbitrary, in the limit of infinite reflection. I suppose, “there is nothing arbitrary” is a valid (consistent) position, but I don’t see any evidence for it.
Interesting! You seem to be a moral realist (cognitivist, whatever) and an a-theist. (I suspect this is the typical LessWrong position, even if the typical LessWronger isn’t as coherent as you.) I’ll take note that I should pester you and/or take care to pay attention to your opinions (comments) more in the future. Also, I thank you for showing me what the reasoning process would be that would lead one to that position. (And I think that position has a very good chance of being correct—in the absence of justifiably-ignorable inside-view (non-communicable) evidence I myself hold.)
(It’s probably obvious that I’m pretty damn drunk. (Interesting that alcohol can be just as effective as LSD or cannabis. (Still not as effective as nitrous oxide or DMT.)))
Any rational agent (optimization process) in any world with some regularities would exploit these regularities, which means use math. A reflective self-optimizing rational agent would arrive to the same math as us, because the math is unique.
Assuming it started with the same laws of inference and axioms. Also I was mostly thinking of statements about the world, e.g., physics.
Assuming it started with the same laws of inference and axioms
Or equivalent ones. But no matter where it started, it won’t arrive at different primitive-recursive truths, at least according to my brain’s current understanding.
Also I was mostly thinking of statements about the world, e.g., physics.
Is there significant difference? Wherever there are regularities in physics, there’s math (=study of regularities). Where no regularities exist, there’s no rationality.
I think the poor things are already dead. More generally, I am aware of that post, but is it relevant? The possible mind design space is of course huge and contains lots of irrational minds, but here I am arguing about universality of rationality.
But rationality is defined by external criteria—it’s about how to win (=achieve intended goals). Morality doesn’t have any such criteria. Thus, “rational minds” is a natural category. “Moral minds” is not.
If we assume some kind of mathematical realism (which seems to be necessary for “abstract computation” and “uniqueness” to have any meaning) then there exist objectively true statements and computations that generate them. At some point there are Goedelian problems, but at least all of the computations agree on the primitive-recursive truths, which are therefore universal, objective, unique, and true.
Any rational agent (optimization process) in any world with some regularities would exploit these regularities, which means use math. A reflective self-optimizing rational agent would arrive to the same math as us, because the math is unique.
Of course, all these points are made by a fallible human brain and so may be wrong.
But there is nothing even like that for morality. In fact, when a moral statement seems universal under sufficient reflection, it stops being a moral statement and becomes simply rational, like cooperating in the Prisoner’s Dilemma when playing against the right opponents.
What is the distinction you are making between rationality and morality, then? What makes you think the former won’t be swallowed up by the latter (or vice versa!) in the limit of infinite reflection?
(Sorta drunk, apologies for conflating conflation of rationality and morality with lack of conflation of rationality and morality, probabilistically-shouldly.)
ETA: I don’t understand how my comments can be so awesome when I’m obviously so freakin’ drunk. ;P . Maybe I should get drunk all the freakin’ time. Or study Latin all the freakin’ time, or read the Bible all the freakin’ time, or ponder how often people are obviously wrong when they use the phrase “all the freakin’ time” (let alone “freakin[‘]”) (especially when they use the phrase “all the freakin’ time” all the freakin’ time, naturally-because-reflexively)....
That was the distinction—one is universal, another arbitrary, in the limit of infinite reflection. I suppose, “there is nothing arbitrary” is a valid (consistent) position, but I don’t see any evidence for it.
Interesting! You seem to be a moral realist (cognitivist, whatever) and an a-theist. (I suspect this is the typical LessWrong position, even if the typical LessWronger isn’t as coherent as you.) I’ll take note that I should pester you and/or take care to pay attention to your opinions (comments) more in the future. Also, I thank you for showing me what the reasoning process would be that would lead one to that position. (And I think that position has a very good chance of being correct—in the absence of justifiably-ignorable inside-view (non-communicable) evidence I myself hold.)
(It’s probably obvious that I’m pretty damn drunk. (Interesting that alcohol can be just as effective as LSD or cannabis. (Still not as effective as nitrous oxide or DMT.)))
Cognitivist yes, moral realist, no. IIUC, it’s EY’s position (“morality is a computation”), so naturally it’s the typical LessWrong position.
Universally valid statements must have universally-available evidence, no?
Really nothing like LSD, which makes it impossible to write anything at all, at least for me.
Assuming it started with the same laws of inference and axioms. Also I was mostly thinking of statements about the world, e.g., physics.
Or equivalent ones. But no matter where it started, it won’t arrive at different primitive-recursive truths, at least according to my brain’s current understanding.
Is there significant difference? Wherever there are regularities in physics, there’s math (=study of regularities). Where no regularities exist, there’s no rationality.
What about the poor beings with an anti-iductive prior? More generally read this post by Eliezer.
I think the poor things are already dead. More generally, I am aware of that post, but is it relevant? The possible mind design space is of course huge and contains lots of irrational minds, but here I am arguing about universality of rationality.
My point, as I stated above, is that every argument I’ve heard against universality of morality applies just as well to rationality.
I agree with your statement:
I would also agree with the following:
The possible mind design space is of course huge and contains lots of immoral minds, but here I am arguing about universality of morality.
But rationality is defined by external criteria—it’s about how to win (=achieve intended goals). Morality doesn’t have any such criteria. Thus, “rational minds” is a natural category. “Moral minds” is not.