Hmm… At least the content of my position seems to have been rehashed a lot, even if you won’t agree with it.
I believe that your opinion about what your values are has very little influence on what your values actually are, which in the backbone are human-universal values plus a lot of person-specific detail that is so below the level of conscious understanding that isn’t even worth speculating about. Whenever someone states an opinion about their values being extreme, they are seriously wrong about their actual values. Consequently, acting on the misconstrued values is against the person’s own actual values.
I don’t grant nearly as much credence to the idea that there are human-universal values as most people around here seem to. People are a wacky, diverse bunch.
Also, if you have an idea about what my values Really Are that is unconnected to what I tell you about them, I don’t want you anywhere near any decisions about my life. Back! Back! The power of my value of self-determination compels you!
Also, if you have an idea about what my values Really Are that is unconnected to what I tell you about them, I don’t want you anywhere near any decisions about my life.
I get my ideas about what people’s values Really Are based on their decisions. How much weight I place on what they tell me about their values varies based on their behaviour and what they say. I don’t make it my business to be anywhere near any decisions about other people’s lives except to the extent that they could impact me and I need to protect my interests.
I don’t grant nearly as much credence to the idea that there are human-universal values as most people around here seem to. People are a wacky, diverse bunch.
That assumption (and presumption!) of human-universal values scares me at times. It triggers my instinctive “if you actually had the power to act on that belief I would have to kill you” instinct.
Even with that kind of ruthless self-determination in mind it is true that “acting on the misconstrued values is against the person’s own actual values”. Vladmir’s point is not particularly controversial, whether it applies to you or not is for you to decide and Vladmir to speculate on if he happens to be curious.
Absolutely. And I weigh that information higher coming from yourself than from many people given my observations of apparent self awareness and maturity somewhat beyond what I expect given your self reported age. Obviously such judgements also vary based on topic and context.
In general, however, my life has been a lot simpler and more successful since realising what people say about their values is not always a reliable indicator.
Back! Back! The power of my value of self-determination compels you!
Friendly AI be the judge (I’m working on that). :-)
By the way, this reminds of Not Taking Over the World (the world is mad and is afraid of getting saved, or course, in the hypothetical scenario where the idea gets taken seriously to begin with!).
I don’t recall hearing that kind of an argument presented here anywhere. Yes, there have been arguments about your values shifting when you happen to achieve power, as well as seemingly altruistic behavior actually working to promote individual fitness. But I don’t think anybody has yet claimed that whenever somebody feels they have extreme values, they are wrong about them.
Furthermore—if the discussion in those referenced posts is the one you’re referring to—I’d be hesitant to claim that the consciously held values are false values. People might actually end up acting on the non-conscious values more than they do on the conscious ones, but that’s no grounds for simply saying “your declared values are false and not worth attention”. If you went down that route, you might as well start saying that since all ethics is rationalization anyway, then any consequentialist arguments that didn’t aim at promoting the maximum fitness of your genes were irrelevant. Not to mention that I would be very, very skeptical of any attempts to claim you knew someone else’s values better than they did.
I’m not arguing for the supremacy of non-conscious values: in many cases, people have good sense of their actual values and consciously resolve their implications, which is what I see as the topic of Which Parts Are “Me”?. The inborn values are not a fixed form, although they are a fixed seed, and their contradictions need to be resolved.
If you went down that route, you might as well start saying that since all ethics is rationalization anyway, then any consequentialist arguments that didn’t aim at promoting the maximum fitness of your genes were irrelevant.
Human universal (we all share the bulk of our values),
Complexity of value (there is a lot of stuff coded in the inborn values; one can’t explain away huge chunks of this complexity by asserting them not present in one’s particular values),
Fake simplicity (it’s easy to find simple arguments that gloss over a complex phenomenon),
No, Really, I’ve Deceived Myself (it’s not a given that one even appreciates the connection of the belief with the asserted content of that belief)
These obviously don’t form a consistent argument, but may give an idea of where I’m coming from. I’m only declining to believe particularly outrageous claims, where I assume the claims being made because of error and not because of the connection to reality; where the claims are not outrageous, they might well indicate the particular ways in which the person’s values deviate from the typical.
I suspect this community overemphasizes the extent to which human universals are applicable to individuals (as opposed to cultures), and underemphasizes individual variation. I should probably write a post regarding this at some point.
Well put. My own uncertainty with regard to my values is the main reason I’m reluctant to take “mind hacks” out for casual spins—I’ve been quite surprised in the past by how sophisticated subconscious reactions can be. That said, I don’t think I could bring myself to ignore my consciously-held values to the point of doing something as significant as signing up for cryonics, were that necessary.
I believe that you are not entitled to your choice of values. Preference and priors are not for grabs.
I cannot make heads nor tails of what you’re trying to convey.
Hmm… At least the content of my position seems to have been rehashed a lot, even if you won’t agree with it.
I believe that your opinion about what your values are has very little influence on what your values actually are, which in the backbone are human-universal values plus a lot of person-specific detail that is so below the level of conscious understanding that isn’t even worth speculating about. Whenever someone states an opinion about their values being extreme, they are seriously wrong about their actual values. Consequently, acting on the misconstrued values is against the person’s own actual values.
I don’t grant nearly as much credence to the idea that there are human-universal values as most people around here seem to. People are a wacky, diverse bunch.
Also, if you have an idea about what my values Really Are that is unconnected to what I tell you about them, I don’t want you anywhere near any decisions about my life. Back! Back! The power of my value of self-determination compels you!
I get my ideas about what people’s values Really Are based on their decisions. How much weight I place on what they tell me about their values varies based on their behaviour and what they say. I don’t make it my business to be anywhere near any decisions about other people’s lives except to the extent that they could impact me and I need to protect my interests.
That assumption (and presumption!) of human-universal values scares me at times. It triggers my instinctive “if you actually had the power to act on that belief I would have to kill you” instinct.
Even with that kind of ruthless self-determination in mind it is true that “acting on the misconstrued values is against the person’s own actual values”. Vladmir’s point is not particularly controversial, whether it applies to you or not is for you to decide and Vladmir to speculate on if he happens to be curious.
My decision to tell you about my values counts as a decision, doesn’t it?
Absolutely. And I weigh that information higher coming from yourself than from many people given my observations of apparent self awareness and maturity somewhat beyond what I expect given your self reported age. Obviously such judgements also vary based on topic and context.
In general, however, my life has been a lot simpler and more successful since realising what people say about their values is not always a reliable indicator.
Friendly AI be the judge (I’m working on that). :-)
By the way, this reminds of Not Taking Over the World (the world is mad and is afraid of getting saved, or course, in the hypothetical scenario where the idea gets taken seriously to begin with!).
Be sure to keep us posted on your progress. It’s always good to know who may need a dose of Sword of Good ahead of time. ;)
I don’t recall hearing that kind of an argument presented here anywhere. Yes, there have been arguments about your values shifting when you happen to achieve power, as well as seemingly altruistic behavior actually working to promote individual fitness. But I don’t think anybody has yet claimed that whenever somebody feels they have extreme values, they are wrong about them.
Furthermore—if the discussion in those referenced posts is the one you’re referring to—I’d be hesitant to claim that the consciously held values are false values. People might actually end up acting on the non-conscious values more than they do on the conscious ones, but that’s no grounds for simply saying “your declared values are false and not worth attention”. If you went down that route, you might as well start saying that since all ethics is rationalization anyway, then any consequentialist arguments that didn’t aim at promoting the maximum fitness of your genes were irrelevant. Not to mention that I would be very, very skeptical of any attempts to claim you knew someone else’s values better than they did.
There have also been posts specifically arguing that those non-conscious values might not actually be your true values.
I’m not arguing for the supremacy of non-conscious values: in many cases, people have good sense of their actual values and consciously resolve their implications, which is what I see as the topic of Which Parts Are “Me”?. The inborn values are not a fixed form, although they are a fixed seed, and their contradictions need to be resolved.
Genes? The expression of that evil alien elder god? They don’t write a default morality.
The links relevant to my argument:
Human universal (we all share the bulk of our values), Complexity of value (there is a lot of stuff coded in the inborn values; one can’t explain away huge chunks of this complexity by asserting them not present in one’s particular values), Fake simplicity (it’s easy to find simple arguments that gloss over a complex phenomenon), No, Really, I’ve Deceived Myself (it’s not a given that one even appreciates the connection of the belief with the asserted content of that belief)
These obviously don’t form a consistent argument, but may give an idea of where I’m coming from. I’m only declining to believe particularly outrageous claims, where I assume the claims being made because of error and not because of the connection to reality; where the claims are not outrageous, they might well indicate the particular ways in which the person’s values deviate from the typical.
I suspect this community overemphasizes the extent to which human universals are applicable to individuals (as opposed to cultures), and underemphasizes individual variation. I should probably write a post regarding this at some point.
Well put. My own uncertainty with regard to my values is the main reason I’m reluctant to take “mind hacks” out for casual spins—I’ve been quite surprised in the past by how sophisticated subconscious reactions can be. That said, I don’t think I could bring myself to ignore my consciously-held values to the point of doing something as significant as signing up for cryonics, were that necessary.