“If you don’t teach your children the One True Religion, you’re a lousy parent.”
Given that the One True Religion is actually correct, wouldn’t you, in fact, be a lousy parent if you did not teach it? Someone who claims to be a Christian and yet doesn’t teach their kids about Christianity is, under their incorrect belief system, condemning them to an eternity of torture, which surely qualifies as being a lousy parent in my book.
IAWYC, but to nitpick, not all Christians believe in an eternity of torture for nonbelievers. Though of course the conclusion follows for any belief in a substantially better afterlife for believers.
(I feel like this is important to point out, to avoid demonizing an outgroup, but don’t trust that feeling very much. What do others think?)
Its conceptually possible to believe that the Bible is full of nonsense yet Jesus really did die for our sins. But nobody ever seems to actually hold this position. Or if they do, they never seem to come out and say it.
Its conceptually possible to believe that the Bible is full of nonsense yet Jesus really did die for our sins. But nobody ever seems to actually hold this position. Or if they do, they never seem to come out and say it.
They do, but they express it as either “the Bible was written by fallible men” or “it’s all Deep Metaphor”.
Indeed, but I wonder how they deal with passages like Revelation 14:11, Matthew 25:41, or Mark 9:43.
If you really want to know, you could try asking them. Or reading their books, if you don’t know any. You could even think up good arguments yourself for reconciling the belief with the verses.
I have no book recommendations. My point is that flaunting Biblical quotations and going “nyah! nyah!” does not make a good argument, even if the conclusion is correct.
Zombie-hunting requires better instruments than that.
I have. You point out the verses to them and they say things like “Well all I know is that God is just.” Or they just say “Hmm.” What I want to know is what a thinking sort of hell-denying Christian says.
Or reading their books
Since this is essentially a heretical position, I’m not sure how heavily it’s defended in the literature. Still, I do have in my bookshelf an anthology containing a universalist essay by Marilyn McCord Adams, where she states that “I do not regard Scripture as infallible [… but …] I do not regard my universalist theology as un-Scriptural, because I believe the theme of definitive divine triumph is central to the Bible”. She seems to want to reject the Bible and accept it too.
You could even think up good arguments yourself for reconciling the belief with the verses.
I think the most coherent Christian position would be: There is a God. Various interesting things happened at God’s doing, including Jesus and his miracles. The people who witnessed all these events wrote about them, but invariably these accounts are half fiction or worse. Paul is clearly a charlatan.
But nobody seems to believe this: Christians who think the Bible is fallible nevertheless act as if it is mostly right.
flaunting Biblical quotations [...] does not make a good argument
It’s necessary when dealing with the doublethink of people who want to take the Bible as divine yet reject key parts of it.
going “nyah! nyah!”
Note that this sort of comment provokes an automatic reaction to fight back, rather than to consider whether you might be correct.
What I want to know is what a thinking sort of hell-denying Christian says.
Many doctrines are collected here. Not all have the damned eternally waterboarded with boiling lead. For example, the Orthodox churches teach that hell is the response to the direct presence of God by the soul which has rejected Him. It is no more a punishment than the pain you feel if you cut a finger.
And then, whatever hell is, who goes there, and do they stay there for eternity? Doctrines differ on this as well—the issue of works vs. faith, or the issue of those who have never encountered the Word and have not been in a position to accept or reject it.
How do they explain Biblical passages? By interpreting them (as they would say) correctly. Unless you look to extreme fringe groups who think that the King James Bible was a new revelation whose every letter is to be as meticulously preserved and revered as Moslems do the Koran, every Christian doctrine allows that the text needs interpretation. As well, the Catholic and Orthodox churches do not regard the Bible as the sole source of the Word, regarding the settled doctrine of the church as another source of divine revelation.
There is also the Book of Nature, which God also wrote.
With multiple sources of divine revelation, but an axiomatic unity of that revelation, any conflicts must result from imperfect human understanding. Given the axiom, it is really not difficult to come up with resolutions of apparent conflicts. Confabulating stories in order to maintain an immovable idea is something the brain is very good at. Watch me confabulate a Bayesian justification of confabulation! Strong evidence can always defeat strong priors, and vice versa. So if the unity of God’s Word is as unshakeable as 2+2=4, a mere difficult passage is less than a feather on the scales.
I say this not to teach Christian doctrines (I’m as atheist as anyone, and my Church of Scotland upbringing was as unzealous as it could possibly be and still be called a religion), but to point out that Christians do actually have answers to these questions. Ok, bad answers if you like, but if you want to argue against them you need to either tackle those answers, or find a weapon so awesome it blows the entire religious enterprise out of the water. (I’m sure there’s a perfect LW link for the latter, but I can’t at the moment recall where. This is rather diffuse.) Just quoting the Bible is like creationists smugly telling each other that evolutionists think a monkey gave birth to a man. It’s an exercise in pouring scorn on Them. You know, those Others, over There.
Just quoting the Bible is like creationists smugly telling each other that evolutionists think a monkey gave birth to a man.
It’s not like that at all. Many Bible passages dealing with Hell are perfectly clear, whereas it takes a great distortion of evolutionary theory to get to “a monkey gave birth to a man”.
It would be easier to accept texts as mere teaching stories if they were clearly intended as such. A few are, like the Book of Job, and possibly, Jonah. Parts of Genesis, maybe (though I doubt it). But it can’t be right to dismiss as a mere story everything that doesn’t seem likely or decent. Much of it is surely intended literally.
A very common argument taught by the traditional churches (as opposed to the neo-evangelical churches in America) that the notions of “eternal fire” and “hell” are just symbols to express the pain caused by the distance from God. Therefore, the punishment is self-inflicted, not something imposed by God directly, but rather a logical consequence.
It’s not too hard to interpret these passages to mean that hell exists, and is only for certain kinds of sins. There’s a difference between rejecting God and never having heard of him, for instance.
I’m always astounded when Protestants do actually believe the Bible is not full of nonsense. The Catholic Church did a lot of editing / selection of what went in there, using “Sacred Tradition” as their primary justification. Given that Protestants reject Sacred Tradition, it should follow that they have no basis for choosing which apocrypha should have been included in the first place, and shouldn’t just take the Catholics’ word for it.
Protestant religions are mostly political constructs. They tried to make a few theological changes, but mostly on the cosmetic level only to justify the political independence from the Pope.
Even if it would not be the case, religions need something sacrosanct, which is the scripture in this case. It would have been politically very unwise to try to compromise the apparent sanctity of that source, especially since it was very easy to put their own interpretation to it. Even modern evangelical religions don’t try to modify the wording of the actual script.
Additionally, since the language of religion has been latin for more than 1500 years, the actual text of the bible changed practically nothing since around 400. One could argue that the church and its ideology that time was more different from the current catholic ones than the current protestant churches and their teachings.
the actual text of the bible changed practically nothing since around 400.
I’d agree with you there, but the period before 400ish was not negligible. Before that time the New Testament wasn’t even a book, but rather a collection of different books, many of which did not make it into the canon. Clearly, people were actually concerned about the issue of canonicity at around the time of the Reformation; it was touched on at Trent, as well as various non-RC christian councils, in the 16th century or so.
That said, while your political explanation seems correct, it should not be comforting to Protestant theologians.
That said, while your political explanation seems correct, it should not be comforting to Protestant theologians.
To be fair: One of the main cornerstones of a lot of christian religions, the divinity of Christ, was quite a political decision from the fourth century.
The Catholic Church did a lot of editing / selection of what went in there, using “Sacred Tradition” as their primary justification.
Literary quality and coherence were actually optimized pretty well in the selection process; if you don’t believe me, read an apocryphal gospel sometime. They’re basically Jesus fanfic of various stripes, much more ridiculous than the ones deemed canonical, and the vast (secular) scholarly consensus has them all written in the second or third centuries (excepting the Gospel of Thomas).
Then again, since many apocryphal gospels were written to buttress theologies different from the mainline one, it was easy to have them rejected for that reason alone.
Also, there are some Christian denominations which think that nonbelievers simply die and don’t get revived after the world has ended, unlike the believers who are.
IIRC some also put more weight on doing good works during your life than whether you are actually a believer or not.
That was also a belief of some of the most important Jewish scholars. Orthodox Judaism holds it as a truth, and the other sects of Judaism don’t believe it.
Not true AFAIK; last time I checked I was told that sinners got a maximum of twelve months in Gehenna, or eleven months if someone says Kaddish for them, and Saturdays off.
Does this change from Orthodox sect to Orthodox sect or even rabbi to rabbi? I glanced at Wikipedia and assumed that quote from the Talmud applied, but maybe it is interpreted differently, quoted out of context, or just selectively ignored. I think I just underestimated the ability of Orthodox Jews to rationalize away their actual belief system, especially the most negative aspects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Orthodox_Judaism
I would guess that the interpretation changed when Sheol stopped being interpreted as “grave” and started being interpreted as “hell.” I don’t know which meaning of Sheol the Talmudic scholars had.
“If you don’t teach your children the One True Religion, you’re a lousy parent.”
Given that the One True Religion is actually correct, wouldn’t you, in fact, be a lousy parent if you did not teach it? Someone who claims to be a Christian and yet doesn’t teach their kids about Christianity is, under their incorrect belief system, condemning them to an eternity of torture, which surely qualifies as being a lousy parent in my book.
IAWYC, but to nitpick, not all Christians believe in an eternity of torture for nonbelievers. Though of course the conclusion follows for any belief in a substantially better afterlife for believers.
(I feel like this is important to point out, to avoid demonizing an outgroup, but don’t trust that feeling very much. What do others think?)
Indeed, but I wonder how they deal with passages like Revelation 14:11, Matthew 25:41, or Mark 9:43.
Its conceptually possible to believe that the Bible is full of nonsense yet Jesus really did die for our sins. But nobody ever seems to actually hold this position. Or if they do, they never seem to come out and say it.
Frequently, by not knowing about them.
They do, but they express it as either “the Bible was written by fallible men” or “it’s all Deep Metaphor”.
If you really want to know, you could try asking them. Or reading their books, if you don’t know any. You could even think up good arguments yourself for reconciling the belief with the verses.
I have no book recommendations. My point is that flaunting Biblical quotations and going “nyah! nyah!” does not make a good argument, even if the conclusion is correct. Zombie-hunting requires better instruments than that.
I have. You point out the verses to them and they say things like “Well all I know is that God is just.” Or they just say “Hmm.” What I want to know is what a thinking sort of hell-denying Christian says.
Since this is essentially a heretical position, I’m not sure how heavily it’s defended in the literature. Still, I do have in my bookshelf an anthology containing a universalist essay by Marilyn McCord Adams, where she states that “I do not regard Scripture as infallible [… but …] I do not regard my universalist theology as un-Scriptural, because I believe the theme of definitive divine triumph is central to the Bible”. She seems to want to reject the Bible and accept it too.
I think the most coherent Christian position would be: There is a God. Various interesting things happened at God’s doing, including Jesus and his miracles. The people who witnessed all these events wrote about them, but invariably these accounts are half fiction or worse. Paul is clearly a charlatan.
But nobody seems to believe this: Christians who think the Bible is fallible nevertheless act as if it is mostly right.
It’s necessary when dealing with the doublethink of people who want to take the Bible as divine yet reject key parts of it.
Note that this sort of comment provokes an automatic reaction to fight back, rather than to consider whether you might be correct.
Many doctrines are collected here. Not all have the damned eternally waterboarded with boiling lead. For example, the Orthodox churches teach that hell is the response to the direct presence of God by the soul which has rejected Him. It is no more a punishment than the pain you feel if you cut a finger.
And then, whatever hell is, who goes there, and do they stay there for eternity? Doctrines differ on this as well—the issue of works vs. faith, or the issue of those who have never encountered the Word and have not been in a position to accept or reject it.
How do they explain Biblical passages? By interpreting them (as they would say) correctly. Unless you look to extreme fringe groups who think that the King James Bible was a new revelation whose every letter is to be as meticulously preserved and revered as Moslems do the Koran, every Christian doctrine allows that the text needs interpretation. As well, the Catholic and Orthodox churches do not regard the Bible as the sole source of the Word, regarding the settled doctrine of the church as another source of divine revelation. There is also the Book of Nature, which God also wrote.
With multiple sources of divine revelation, but an axiomatic unity of that revelation, any conflicts must result from imperfect human understanding. Given the axiom, it is really not difficult to come up with resolutions of apparent conflicts. Confabulating stories in order to maintain an immovable idea is something the brain is very good at. Watch me confabulate a Bayesian justification of confabulation! Strong evidence can always defeat strong priors, and vice versa. So if the unity of God’s Word is as unshakeable as 2+2=4, a mere difficult passage is less than a feather on the scales.
I say this not to teach Christian doctrines (I’m as atheist as anyone, and my Church of Scotland upbringing was as unzealous as it could possibly be and still be called a religion), but to point out that Christians do actually have answers to these questions. Ok, bad answers if you like, but if you want to argue against them you need to either tackle those answers, or find a weapon so awesome it blows the entire religious enterprise out of the water. (I’m sure there’s a perfect LW link for the latter, but I can’t at the moment recall where. This is rather diffuse.) Just quoting the Bible is like creationists smugly telling each other that evolutionists think a monkey gave birth to a man. It’s an exercise in pouring scorn on Them. You know, those Others, over There.
As Nick Tarleton warned, upthread.
It’s not like that at all. Many Bible passages dealing with Hell are perfectly clear, whereas it takes a great distortion of evolutionary theory to get to “a monkey gave birth to a man”.
Speaking of thinking Christians makes me think of Fred Clark: some clue might be found in his interpretation of Genesis 6-9.
It would be easier to accept texts as mere teaching stories if they were clearly intended as such. A few are, like the Book of Job, and possibly, Jonah. Parts of Genesis, maybe (though I doubt it). But it can’t be right to dismiss as a mere story everything that doesn’t seem likely or decent. Much of it is surely intended literally.
I would agree, which is part of why I found the linked post so strange.
A very common argument taught by the traditional churches (as opposed to the neo-evangelical churches in America) that the notions of “eternal fire” and “hell” are just symbols to express the pain caused by the distance from God. Therefore, the punishment is self-inflicted, not something imposed by God directly, but rather a logical consequence.
It’s not too hard to interpret these passages to mean that hell exists, and is only for certain kinds of sins. There’s a difference between rejecting God and never having heard of him, for instance.
I’m always astounded when Protestants do actually believe the Bible is not full of nonsense. The Catholic Church did a lot of editing / selection of what went in there, using “Sacred Tradition” as their primary justification. Given that Protestants reject Sacred Tradition, it should follow that they have no basis for choosing which apocrypha should have been included in the first place, and shouldn’t just take the Catholics’ word for it.
Protestant religions are mostly political constructs. They tried to make a few theological changes, but mostly on the cosmetic level only to justify the political independence from the Pope.
Even if it would not be the case, religions need something sacrosanct, which is the scripture in this case. It would have been politically very unwise to try to compromise the apparent sanctity of that source, especially since it was very easy to put their own interpretation to it. Even modern evangelical religions don’t try to modify the wording of the actual script.
Additionally, since the language of religion has been latin for more than 1500 years, the actual text of the bible changed practically nothing since around 400. One could argue that the church and its ideology that time was more different from the current catholic ones than the current protestant churches and their teachings.
I’d agree with you there, but the period before 400ish was not negligible. Before that time the New Testament wasn’t even a book, but rather a collection of different books, many of which did not make it into the canon. Clearly, people were actually concerned about the issue of canonicity at around the time of the Reformation; it was touched on at Trent, as well as various non-RC christian councils, in the 16th century or so.
That said, while your political explanation seems correct, it should not be comforting to Protestant theologians.
To be fair: One of the main cornerstones of a lot of christian religions, the divinity of Christ, was quite a political decision from the fourth century.
Theologians learned to live with it as well.
Literary quality and coherence were actually optimized pretty well in the selection process; if you don’t believe me, read an apocryphal gospel sometime. They’re basically Jesus fanfic of various stripes, much more ridiculous than the ones deemed canonical, and the vast (secular) scholarly consensus has them all written in the second or third centuries (excepting the Gospel of Thomas).
Then again, since many apocryphal gospels were written to buttress theologies different from the mainline one, it was easy to have them rejected for that reason alone.
Some Protestant sects do, indeed, use a slightly different Bible than the Catholic one. (Or so I heard.)
That’s correct; they drop some late-written Old Testament books, which they call the “Catholic Apocrypha”.
Also, there are some Christian denominations which think that nonbelievers simply die and don’t get revived after the world has ended, unlike the believers who are.
IIRC some also put more weight on doing good works during your life than whether you are actually a believer or not.
This is what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.
That was also a belief of some of the most important Jewish scholars. Orthodox Judaism holds it as a truth, and the other sects of Judaism don’t believe it.
Not true AFAIK; last time I checked I was told that sinners got a maximum of twelve months in Gehenna, or eleven months if someone says Kaddish for them, and Saturdays off.
Does this change from Orthodox sect to Orthodox sect or even rabbi to rabbi? I glanced at Wikipedia and assumed that quote from the Talmud applied, but maybe it is interpreted differently, quoted out of context, or just selectively ignored. I think I just underestimated the ability of Orthodox Jews to rationalize away their actual belief system, especially the most negative aspects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Orthodox_Judaism
I would guess that the interpretation changed when Sheol stopped being interpreted as “grave” and started being interpreted as “hell.” I don’t know which meaning of Sheol the Talmudic scholars had.