I don’t think the 1 to 100 scale works; the scale should allow for negative numbers to accommodate some of the concepts that have been mentioned.For example, would you rather die at 50 years old, or live another decade while being constantly and pointlessly tortured, and then die?
It seems reasonable to assume that selection bias will work in our favor when considering the nature of the world in cases where the revival will work. This is debatable, but the debate shouldn’t just be ignored.
Even assuming that your math is right, I’m having a hard time thinking of something that I could spend $300/year on that would give me a quality-of-life increase equivalent to 5% of the difference between the worse possible case (being tortured for a year) and the best possible case (being massively independently wealthy, having an awesome social life and plenty of interesting things to do with my time). I’d rate a week’s vacation as less than 0.5% of the difference between those two, for example, and you can barely get plane tickets to somewhere interesting for $300.
Edit: Flubbed the math. Point still stands, but not as strongly as I originally thought.
For a single individual the cost is much more than $300. Alcor’s website says membership is $478 annually, plus another $120 a year if you elect the stand-by option. Also you need $150K worth of life insurance, which will add a bit more.
Peanuts! You say...
I really don’t see the point of signing up now, because I really don’t see how you can avoid losing all the information in your mind to autolysis unless you get a standby or at least a very quick (within an hour or two) vitrification. That means I have to be in the right place, at the right time when I die and I simply don’t think thats likely now—when any death I experience would almost certainly be sudden and it would be hours and hours before I’m vitrified.
I mean, if I get a disease and have some warning then sure I’ll consider a move to Phoenix and pay them their $20k surcharge (about a lifetime’s worth of dues anyway) and pay for the procedure in cash up-front. There is no reason for me to put money into dues now when the net present value of those payments exceeds the surcharge they charge if you are a “last minute” patient.
I understand this isn’t an option if you don’t have at least that much liquidity but since I happen to do so then it makes sense to me to keep it all (and future payments) under my control.
Hopefully that decision is a long time from now and I’ll be more optimistic about the whole business at that time. I’ll also have better picture of my overall financial outlook and whether I’d rather spend that money on my children’s future than my doubtful one.
jhuffman’s point made me think of the following devil’s advocacy:
If someone is very confident of cryonics, say more than 99% confident, then they should have themselves preserved before death. They should really have themselves preserved immediately—otherwise there is a higher risk that they will die in a way that causes the destruction of their mind, than there is that cryonics will fail. The amount that they will be willing to pay would also be irrelevant—they won’t need the money until after they are preserved. I appreciate that there are probably laws against preserving healthy adults, so this is strictly a thought experiment.
As people get older their risk of death or brain damage increases. This means that as someone gets older the confidence level at which they should seek early preservation will decrease. Also as someone gets older their expected “natural” survival time decreases, by definition. This means the payoff for not seeking early preservation is reducing all the time. This seems to bring some force to the argument—if there is a 10% probability that cryonics will succeed, then I really can’t see why anyone would let themselves get within 6 years of likely death—they are putting a second lifetime at risk for 6 years of less and less healthy life.
Finally the confidence level relates to cost. If people can be shown to have a low level of confidence in cryonics, then their willingness to pay money should be lower. The figures I’ve seen quoted require a sum of $150,000. (Whether this is paid in life insurance or not is irrelevant—you must pay for it in the premium since, if you’re going to keep the insurance until you die, the probability of the insurer paying out is 100%). If the probability of Cryonics working is 10%, then the average cost for a successful re-animation is $1.5 million. This is a pretty conservative cost I think—doubtless for some who read this blog it is small change. Not for me sadly though :)
I don’t think anyone is that confident...at least I hope that they are not. Even if cryonics itself works there are so many other reasons revival would never happen; I outlined them near the bottom of the thread related to my original reply to this post already so I won’t do so again. Suffice it to say, even if you had 100% confidence in both cryonics and future revival technology, you cannot have nearly 100% confidence in actually being revived.
But if you are young and healthy and want to be preserved intact you can probably figure out how to do it; but it is risky and you need to take precautions which I don’t know the least thing about… The last thing you want is to end up under a scalpel on a medical examiner’s table, which is what often happens to people who die suddenly or violently.
I really don’t see how you can avoid losing all the information in your mind to autolysis unless you get a standby or at least a very quick (within an hour or two) vitrification.
It’s information, it doesn’t need to be found in the same form that is necessary for normal brain’s function. If there is something else correlated with the info in question, or some kind of residue from which it’s possible to infer what was there before, it’s enough. Also, concepts in the brain seem to be coded holographically, so even a bullet in the brain may be recoverable from.
(For the same reason, importance of vitrification seems overemphasised. I can’t imagine information getting lost because of freezing damage. Of course, brain becomes broken, but info doesn’t magically disappear because of that.)
And yet even vitrified brains still fracture during freezing, and even pre-vitrification bodies are stored. What happens in modern practice to bodies that were impossible to vitrify, or that weren’t frozen for “too long” (e.g. because of autopsy)? Are they thrown away? (I believe they are.) I’m a little worried about these scenarios (and consistency of decision-making that goes into them).
Lots of non-vitrified bodies are stored. I don’t think any are discarded because they were impossible to vitrify, but some are discarded because they weren’t frozen for too long, and Alcor note that this is controversial: see Neural Archaeology and Ethics of Non-ideal Cryonics Cases.
I’m expecting to have to wait a long subjective time before I get to meet James Bedford, put it that way!
The really key idea in cryonics is the idea of freezing (or otherwise preserving) people when we don’t know if we can ever revive them. Of course, we intend to figure out later whether we can do this. We intend to succeed in reviving them. But before we’ve actually done so, we certainly can’t prove we will succeed. And funny thing, after we’ve done so, the proof will be irrelevant.
[...]
We can say that a condition is incurable (meaning permanently incurable, not just incurable by present technology) if the information is permanently lost. Without any means to put patients in stasis, doctors must decide what is curable and incurable in a hasty fashion. Nobody can afford to wait. But with cryonic suspension, there is no hurry at all. We simply don’t have to decide that someone is gone until we have full and complete understanding of what happened to them. Before cryonics, the patient was assumed dead unless proven otherwise; after cryonics, we assume that the patient is alive unless proven otherwise.
The most serious ethical problems of non-ideal cases arise in the context of “last minute” cases. A “last minute” case is a case in which a cryonics organization is contacted when legal death is imminent, or has already occurred, for a non-member of the organization.
These cases typically involve distraught families, high emotion, lack of informed consent, and even lack of patient consent when the patient is unconscious or already legally deceased. Families are faced with the decision of paying a large amount of money for something they do not understand, is not likely to work, and that cryonics organizations can barely defend. Such cases conform to the worst negative stereotypes of cryonics preying on grieving families for financial gain. “Last minute” cases are rarely accepted by Alcor for many of these reasons.
It’s information, it doesn’t need to be found in the same form that is necessary for normal brain’s function. If there is something else correlated with the info in question, or some kind of residue from which it’s possible to infer what was there before, it’s enough.
That’s a pretty big if. The self-destruction and consumption of neural cells is certainly going to leave a residue, but this would be like trying to figure out what sort of information was carved into an apple slice before I ate it, digested it and excreted the remains.
I am fairly sure, though I haven’t been able to refind a link, that there’s some solid evidence that autolysis isn’t nearly that quick or severe.
We can watch neural cells dying underneath a microscope. The destruction looks pretty complete. Structure is dissolved in what are essentially digestive enzymes.
If you read Alcor’s FAQ for Scientists, you’ll notice that they are the most careful to point out that there is considerable doubt about the possibility to ever revive anyone whose gone several hours without vitrification. Maybe this is because they want more “stand-by” revenue. Maybe its because they know they know there is no basis for speculation; by our current understanding of things its a serious problem. There are those who hope it is not a fatal problem. There are those who hope there is a heaven, too.
What has to be done ASAP is not vitrification it is cooling. Just dropping the body in a bath of icewater will prevent that kind of damage for days; and Suspended Animation or Alcor—either of which will be waiting right next to your bedside as fast as they can fly—have much more effective ways of cooling than a bath of icewater, and they’re working on better ways yet. They also use a portable thumper to perform CPR while cooling (their special waterproof version has been patented by cryo orgs for marketing for other medical uses), just to make sure your blood stays oxygenated while you’re in the metabolic danger zone, and I believe they pump you full of other protectants as well (using interosseous access, which is much faster than intravenous).
Local cryonics groups in faraway lands may not have thumpers and complicated blood medications and interosseous access, but they can at least dump you in a bathtub of ice water and perform CPR for a few minutes.
Also, with a bit more life insurance you can get the air ambulance option at Suspended Animation.
What has to be done ASAP is not vitrification it is cooling.
You are right—what I should be saying is not that I’m concerned about the likelihood of hours without vitrification but that I am concerned about hours of autolysis occurring.
Yes, well, I think it’s safe to say that quite a few cryonics patients and orgs are concerned about that. There are complex technologies to prevent it, but also a simple one, widely available if you have any local cryonics group. It’s called crushed ice, and a lot of stores will sell it to you.
What we need are studies of damage from vitrification when the operation was not done immediately after death, but after few hours as it usually happens.
Please write up these objections into a blog post or article somewhere. From the searches I’ve been doing, you only have to clear a very low bar to write the most clearly argued and well informed criticism of cryonics in the world.
I don’t think the 1 to 100 scale works; the scale should allow for negative numbers to accommodate some of the concepts that have been mentioned.For example, would you rather die at 50 years old, or live another decade while being constantly and pointlessly tortured, and then die?
It seems reasonable to assume that selection bias will work in our favor when considering the nature of the world in cases where the revival will work. This is debatable, but the debate shouldn’t just be ignored.
Even assuming that your math is right, I’m having a hard time thinking of something that I could spend $300/year on that would give me a quality-of-life increase equivalent to 5% of the difference between the worse possible case (being tortured for a year) and the best possible case (being massively independently wealthy, having an awesome social life and plenty of interesting things to do with my time). I’d rate a week’s vacation as less than 0.5% of the difference between those two, for example, and you can barely get plane tickets to somewhere interesting for $300.
Edit: Flubbed the math. Point still stands, but not as strongly as I originally thought.
For a single individual the cost is much more than $300. Alcor’s website says membership is $478 annually, plus another $120 a year if you elect the stand-by option. Also you need $150K worth of life insurance, which will add a bit more.
Peanuts! You say...
I really don’t see the point of signing up now, because I really don’t see how you can avoid losing all the information in your mind to autolysis unless you get a standby or at least a very quick (within an hour or two) vitrification. That means I have to be in the right place, at the right time when I die and I simply don’t think thats likely now—when any death I experience would almost certainly be sudden and it would be hours and hours before I’m vitrified.
I mean, if I get a disease and have some warning then sure I’ll consider a move to Phoenix and pay them their $20k surcharge (about a lifetime’s worth of dues anyway) and pay for the procedure in cash up-front. There is no reason for me to put money into dues now when the net present value of those payments exceeds the surcharge they charge if you are a “last minute” patient.
I understand this isn’t an option if you don’t have at least that much liquidity but since I happen to do so then it makes sense to me to keep it all (and future payments) under my control.
Hopefully that decision is a long time from now and I’ll be more optimistic about the whole business at that time. I’ll also have better picture of my overall financial outlook and whether I’d rather spend that money on my children’s future than my doubtful one.
jhuffman’s point made me think of the following devil’s advocacy: If someone is very confident of cryonics, say more than 99% confident, then they should have themselves preserved before death. They should really have themselves preserved immediately—otherwise there is a higher risk that they will die in a way that causes the destruction of their mind, than there is that cryonics will fail. The amount that they will be willing to pay would also be irrelevant—they won’t need the money until after they are preserved. I appreciate that there are probably laws against preserving healthy adults, so this is strictly a thought experiment.
As people get older their risk of death or brain damage increases. This means that as someone gets older the confidence level at which they should seek early preservation will decrease. Also as someone gets older their expected “natural” survival time decreases, by definition. This means the payoff for not seeking early preservation is reducing all the time. This seems to bring some force to the argument—if there is a 10% probability that cryonics will succeed, then I really can’t see why anyone would let themselves get within 6 years of likely death—they are putting a second lifetime at risk for 6 years of less and less healthy life.
Finally the confidence level relates to cost. If people can be shown to have a low level of confidence in cryonics, then their willingness to pay money should be lower. The figures I’ve seen quoted require a sum of $150,000. (Whether this is paid in life insurance or not is irrelevant—you must pay for it in the premium since, if you’re going to keep the insurance until you die, the probability of the insurer paying out is 100%). If the probability of Cryonics working is 10%, then the average cost for a successful re-animation is $1.5 million. This is a pretty conservative cost I think—doubtless for some who read this blog it is small change. Not for me sadly though :)
I don’t think anyone is that confident...at least I hope that they are not. Even if cryonics itself works there are so many other reasons revival would never happen; I outlined them near the bottom of the thread related to my original reply to this post already so I won’t do so again. Suffice it to say, even if you had 100% confidence in both cryonics and future revival technology, you cannot have nearly 100% confidence in actually being revived.
But if you are young and healthy and want to be preserved intact you can probably figure out how to do it; but it is risky and you need to take precautions which I don’t know the least thing about… The last thing you want is to end up under a scalpel on a medical examiner’s table, which is what often happens to people who die suddenly or violently.
It’s information, it doesn’t need to be found in the same form that is necessary for normal brain’s function. If there is something else correlated with the info in question, or some kind of residue from which it’s possible to infer what was there before, it’s enough. Also, concepts in the brain seem to be coded holographically, so even a bullet in the brain may be recoverable from.
(For the same reason, importance of vitrification seems overemphasised. I can’t imagine information getting lost because of freezing damage. Of course, brain becomes broken, but info doesn’t magically disappear because of that.)
Most cryonics literature concentrates on the possibility of direct bodily reanimation, not scanning and WBE.
And yet even vitrified brains still fracture during freezing, and even pre-vitrification bodies are stored. What happens in modern practice to bodies that were impossible to vitrify, or that weren’t frozen for “too long” (e.g. because of autopsy)? Are they thrown away? (I believe they are.) I’m a little worried about these scenarios (and consistency of decision-making that goes into them).
Lots of non-vitrified bodies are stored. I don’t think any are discarded because they were impossible to vitrify, but some are discarded because they weren’t frozen for too long, and Alcor note that this is controversial: see Neural Archaeology and Ethics of Non-ideal Cryonics Cases.
I’m expecting to have to wait a long subjective time before I get to meet James Bedford, put it that way!
(Updated to add “Ethics...” link)
Thanks for the links! From the first one:
From the second link:
Sure, but if I was Alcor or CI, I’d be wary of being seen to be over-eager to preserve (and so get the money).
The best solution is probably to ask when you sign up.
That’s a pretty big if. The self-destruction and consumption of neural cells is certainly going to leave a residue, but this would be like trying to figure out what sort of information was carved into an apple slice before I ate it, digested it and excreted the remains.
I am fairly sure, though I haven’t been able to refind a link, that there’s some solid evidence that autolysis isn’t nearly that quick or severe.
We can watch neural cells dying underneath a microscope. The destruction looks pretty complete. Structure is dissolved in what are essentially digestive enzymes.
If you read Alcor’s FAQ for Scientists, you’ll notice that they are the most careful to point out that there is considerable doubt about the possibility to ever revive anyone whose gone several hours without vitrification. Maybe this is because they want more “stand-by” revenue. Maybe its because they know they know there is no basis for speculation; by our current understanding of things its a serious problem. There are those who hope it is not a fatal problem. There are those who hope there is a heaven, too.
What has to be done ASAP is not vitrification it is cooling. Just dropping the body in a bath of icewater will prevent that kind of damage for days; and Suspended Animation or Alcor—either of which will be waiting right next to your bedside as fast as they can fly—have much more effective ways of cooling than a bath of icewater, and they’re working on better ways yet. They also use a portable thumper to perform CPR while cooling (their special waterproof version has been patented by cryo orgs for marketing for other medical uses), just to make sure your blood stays oxygenated while you’re in the metabolic danger zone, and I believe they pump you full of other protectants as well (using interosseous access, which is much faster than intravenous).
Local cryonics groups in faraway lands may not have thumpers and complicated blood medications and interosseous access, but they can at least dump you in a bathtub of ice water and perform CPR for a few minutes.
Also, with a bit more life insurance you can get the air ambulance option at Suspended Animation.
You are right—what I should be saying is not that I’m concerned about the likelihood of hours without vitrification but that I am concerned about hours of autolysis occurring.
Yes, well, I think it’s safe to say that quite a few cryonics patients and orgs are concerned about that. There are complex technologies to prevent it, but also a simple one, widely available if you have any local cryonics group. It’s called crushed ice, and a lot of stores will sell it to you.
What we need are studies of damage from vitrification when the operation was not done immediately after death, but after few hours as it usually happens.
Please write up these objections into a blog post or article somewhere. From the searches I’ve been doing, you only have to clear a very low bar to write the most clearly argued and well informed criticism of cryonics in the world.