I think that most people, including rationalists, have significant psychological problems that interfere with their happiness in life and impair their rationality and their pursuit of rationality. What we think of as normal is very dysfunctional, and it is dysfunctional in many more ways than just being irrational and subject to cognitive biases.
I think furthermore that before devoting yourself to rationality at the near exclusion of other types of self-improvement, you should devote some serious effort to overcoming the more mundane psychological problems such as being overly attached to material trinkets and measuring your self-worth in material terms, being unaware of your emotions and unable to express your emotions clearly and honestly, having persistent family and relationship problems, having chronic psychosomatic ailments, etc. Without attending to these sorts of issues first (or at the same time), trying to become a rationalist jedi is like trying to get a bodybuilder physique before you’ve fixed your diet and lost the 200 extra pounds you have.
I fear this may be wishful thinking; you can get much further than I would have thought a priori in a sub-art of rationality without developing a strong kick as well as a strong punch.
It would be interesting to try to diagram the “forced skill development”—for example, how far can you get in cognitive science before your ability to believe in a supernatural collapses—and of course the diagram would be very different for skills you studied from others versus skills you were able to invent yourself.
I’m not sure how much you mean by the doing without a kick analogy. If you mean, for example, that a rationalist should overcome something like social anxiety that impedes his research career by developing techniques from scratch rather than engaging in something like cognitive behavioral therapy, then I disagree. Ditto for the other sorts of psychological problems I mentioned.
The reason is not that I think you couldn’t address anything from first principles, building up techniques as you go, but that this would be hugely inefficient, like developing calculus from first principles rather than studying a textbook.
If you’re interested in this, we should be talking about CBT and related techniques, which are essentially a form of rationalism training directed at those biases which feed eg depression and anxiety disorders. If rationalism training were brought into schools, some CBT techniques should be part of that.
Yes, CBT and related techniques are exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.
I don’t think most rationalists are aware of them though, and it’s not because rationalists suffer from none of the problems for which they are especially effective or because they have already addressed the problems via other means.
I would hold myself to much higher standards for a top-level post than for a comment, and I’m extremely busy at the moment, so I won’t be able to do a top-level post for at least the next couple of weeks.
If anybody else has thought about this issue as well and wants to write a top-level post, feel free to do so. If I don’t see such a post, then I’ll write one up when I have time in a couple of weeks.
I’m inclined to believe that rationality is more an instrument rather than a goal, as you try to describe it. Being attached to material trinkets, (or not) will be a rational choice for the one who developed his rationality and was able to think his choice through, while irrationally dismissing the utility of mundane gadgetry as well as wholeheartedly embracing it, most likely as a result of an induced bias, exposes the undertaker to unconsidered, not-yet-evaluated risks—hence the label “irrationally”.
There is some seed of truth in what you’re saying—the balance between the effort of developing a rational art and the likely impact of that development on one’s goal has to receive the necessary attention.
To go with the example provided (the body-builder [the rationalist jedi]) - going straight towards his final goal (obtaining an Adonis physique [being a rational jedi]) will help him develop more muscle mass [more powerful rational skills] which would mean more fat-burning cells in his body [more chances to make the right decisions when various day-to-day challenges arise] to deal with the extra 200 pounds [whatever skewed perception or behavioural pattern one has], which, in my opinion is more close to optimal than a simple diet [blunt choice of “what is right” based on commonly-accepted opinion].
I think of rationality in instrumental terms too. The point is achieving your ends most reliably and most efficiently, and rationality broadly construed is the way to accomplish those ends.
I gave the example of being overly attached to material trinkets, not just being attached. Being overly attached by definition could never be a rational choice.
With regard to the bodybuilder analogy, I think the optimal solution will include some study of diet and nutrition and modification of your diet (it’s likely to be extremely unhealthy if you’re morbidly obese). Working out will be much more efficient given a strong foundation of diet and other aspects of health. Likewise with rationality, progress will be quicker if it builds upon a strong foundation of psychological health. If there isn’t such a foundation already, it deserves serious attention as a high-priority sub-art.
I think the notion the ‘most people suffer from significant problem X’ is very often plain misunderstood. If everybody ‘suffers’ X, X is the norm, not an affliction (with exceptions such as, say, lower back pain). You’re projecting your normative values onto factual matters.
Also, the notion that we have deficient moral/mental capacities seems to me unsupported and basically quasi-religious. “What we think of as normal is very dysfunctional...” Red pill or blue pill. Please.
Our attachment to material trinkets, material self-worth, emotion expression abilities, family problems etc. all stem from our evolutionary background and the conflicting selection pressures our species was subjected to. Why would one even think that an conflict-free perfect Bayesian could, would or should result from evolution?
Yes, it sucks loving your spouse and wanting to cheat at the same time. I just don’t see how this translates into “significant psychological problems.” Especially not some that need be overcome before moving on towards rationality Nirvana. I suggest bullet-biting as the cure for this ailment.
It is possible for X to be the norm and simultaneously cause suffering, contra your first paragraph. How common the characteristic is and how much suffering it causes are only loosely related. I’m not talking about normative values at all.
OF COURSE attachment to material trinkets, etc., come from our evolutionary background. Where else would they come from? That has no bearing at all on whether we would benefit from overcoming some of evolved tendencies. I have no idea how you could possibly have misinterpreted me to be arguing that a “conflict-free perfect Bayesian could, would or should result from evolution”. Please enlighten me as to how anything I said implies that.
You’re arguing against a position that nobody here has put forward. Notice how I said “overly attached” (overly implying that some amount is healthy but that there is commonly too much, where too much means “contributes to losing, not winning”) and you misrepresented me as saying “attached”, how I said “having persistent family and relationship problems” (indicating losing not winning over an extended period of time) and you misrepresented that as “loving your spouse and wanting to cheat” (which most of us probably agree is extremely common and not necessarily a problem at all).
Please try to read more carefully and not immediately pigeonhole me into “the most likely cliche”.
I think that most people, including rationalists, have significant psychological problems that interfere with their happiness in life and impair their rationality and their pursuit of rationality. What we think of as normal is very dysfunctional, and it is dysfunctional in many more ways than just being irrational and subject to cognitive biases.
I think furthermore that before devoting yourself to rationality at the near exclusion of other types of self-improvement, you should devote some serious effort to overcoming the more mundane psychological problems such as being overly attached to material trinkets and measuring your self-worth in material terms, being unaware of your emotions and unable to express your emotions clearly and honestly, having persistent family and relationship problems, having chronic psychosomatic ailments, etc. Without attending to these sorts of issues first (or at the same time), trying to become a rationalist jedi is like trying to get a bodybuilder physique before you’ve fixed your diet and lost the 200 extra pounds you have.
I fear this may be wishful thinking; you can get much further than I would have thought a priori in a sub-art of rationality without developing a strong kick as well as a strong punch.
It would be interesting to try to diagram the “forced skill development”—for example, how far can you get in cognitive science before your ability to believe in a supernatural collapses—and of course the diagram would be very different for skills you studied from others versus skills you were able to invent yourself.
I’m not sure how much you mean by the doing without a kick analogy. If you mean, for example, that a rationalist should overcome something like social anxiety that impedes his research career by developing techniques from scratch rather than engaging in something like cognitive behavioral therapy, then I disagree. Ditto for the other sorts of psychological problems I mentioned.
The reason is not that I think you couldn’t address anything from first principles, building up techniques as you go, but that this would be hugely inefficient, like developing calculus from first principles rather than studying a textbook.
Would you consider a top-level post about this?
(FWIW, I, at least, see emotional self-awareness as a core rationality skill.)
If you’re interested in this, we should be talking about CBT and related techniques, which are essentially a form of rationalism training directed at those biases which feed eg depression and anxiety disorders. If rationalism training were brought into schools, some CBT techniques should be part of that.
Yes, CBT and related techniques are exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.
I don’t think most rationalists are aware of them though, and it’s not because rationalists suffer from none of the problems for which they are especially effective or because they have already addressed the problems via other means.
I might do one, actually
I would hold myself to much higher standards for a top-level post than for a comment, and I’m extremely busy at the moment, so I won’t be able to do a top-level post for at least the next couple of weeks.
If anybody else has thought about this issue as well and wants to write a top-level post, feel free to do so. If I don’t see such a post, then I’ll write one up when I have time in a couple of weeks.
I’m inclined to believe that rationality is more an instrument rather than a goal, as you try to describe it. Being attached to material trinkets, (or not) will be a rational choice for the one who developed his rationality and was able to think his choice through, while irrationally dismissing the utility of mundane gadgetry as well as wholeheartedly embracing it, most likely as a result of an induced bias, exposes the undertaker to unconsidered, not-yet-evaluated risks—hence the label “irrationally”.
There is some seed of truth in what you’re saying—the balance between the effort of developing a rational art and the likely impact of that development on one’s goal has to receive the necessary attention.
To go with the example provided (the body-builder [the rationalist jedi]) - going straight towards his final goal (obtaining an Adonis physique [being a rational jedi]) will help him develop more muscle mass [more powerful rational skills] which would mean more fat-burning cells in his body [more chances to make the right decisions when various day-to-day challenges arise] to deal with the extra 200 pounds [whatever skewed perception or behavioural pattern one has], which, in my opinion is more close to optimal than a simple diet [blunt choice of “what is right” based on commonly-accepted opinion].
I think of rationality in instrumental terms too. The point is achieving your ends most reliably and most efficiently, and rationality broadly construed is the way to accomplish those ends.
I gave the example of being overly attached to material trinkets, not just being attached. Being overly attached by definition could never be a rational choice.
With regard to the bodybuilder analogy, I think the optimal solution will include some study of diet and nutrition and modification of your diet (it’s likely to be extremely unhealthy if you’re morbidly obese). Working out will be much more efficient given a strong foundation of diet and other aspects of health. Likewise with rationality, progress will be quicker if it builds upon a strong foundation of psychological health. If there isn’t such a foundation already, it deserves serious attention as a high-priority sub-art.
I think the notion the ‘most people suffer from significant problem X’ is very often plain misunderstood. If everybody ‘suffers’ X, X is the norm, not an affliction (with exceptions such as, say, lower back pain). You’re projecting your normative values onto factual matters.
Also, the notion that we have deficient moral/mental capacities seems to me unsupported and basically quasi-religious. “What we think of as normal is very dysfunctional...” Red pill or blue pill. Please.
Our attachment to material trinkets, material self-worth, emotion expression abilities, family problems etc. all stem from our evolutionary background and the conflicting selection pressures our species was subjected to. Why would one even think that an conflict-free perfect Bayesian could, would or should result from evolution?
Yes, it sucks loving your spouse and wanting to cheat at the same time. I just don’t see how this translates into “significant psychological problems.” Especially not some that need be overcome before moving on towards rationality Nirvana. I suggest bullet-biting as the cure for this ailment.
It is possible for X to be the norm and simultaneously cause suffering, contra your first paragraph. How common the characteristic is and how much suffering it causes are only loosely related. I’m not talking about normative values at all.
OF COURSE attachment to material trinkets, etc., come from our evolutionary background. Where else would they come from? That has no bearing at all on whether we would benefit from overcoming some of evolved tendencies. I have no idea how you could possibly have misinterpreted me to be arguing that a “conflict-free perfect Bayesian could, would or should result from evolution”. Please enlighten me as to how anything I said implies that.
You’re arguing against a position that nobody here has put forward. Notice how I said “overly attached” (overly implying that some amount is healthy but that there is commonly too much, where too much means “contributes to losing, not winning”) and you misrepresented me as saying “attached”, how I said “having persistent family and relationship problems” (indicating losing not winning over an extended period of time) and you misrepresented that as “loving your spouse and wanting to cheat” (which most of us probably agree is extremely common and not necessarily a problem at all).
Please try to read more carefully and not immediately pigeonhole me into “the most likely cliche”.
Lower back pain is exactly the model you should have in mind
That’s exactly what normative values are for
The notion that we have deficient mental capabilities is borne out in countless experimental studies.
Of course we haven’t evolved to be perfect Bayesians—that’s the whole point.
Pick a better example—many relationship problems demand a more thoughtful take than “suck it up”.
EDIT: Re-reading, this seems unnecessarily hostile. Don’t have time to reword properly, please accept my apologies...