I don’t like libertarianism. It makes some really good points, and clearly there are lots of things government should stay out of, but the whole narrative of government as the evil villain that can never do anything right strikes me as more of a heroic myth than a useful way to shape policy. This only applies to libertarians who go overboard, though. I like Will Wilkinson, but I hate Lew Rockwell.
I think the better class of mystics probably know some things about the mind the rest of us don’t. I tend to trust yogis who say they’ve achieved perfect bliss after years of meditation, although I think there’s a neurological explanation (and would like to know what it is). I think Crowley’s project to systematize and scientifically explain mysticism had some good results even though he did go utterly off the deep end.
I am not sure I will sign up for cryonics, although I am still seriously considering it. The probability of ending up immortal and stuck in a dystopia where I couldn’t commit suicide scares me too much.
I have a very hard time going under 2-3% belief in anything that lots of other people believe. This includes religion, UFOs, and ESP. Not astrology though, oddly enough; I’ll happily go so low on that one it’d take exponential notation to describe properly.
I like religion. I don’t believe it, I just like it. Greek mythology is my favorite, but I think the Abrahamic religions are pretty neat too.
I am a very hard-core utilitarian, and happily accept John Maxwell’s altruist argument. I sorta accept Torture vs. Dust Specks on a rational but not an emotional level.
I am still not entirely convinced that irrationality can’t be fun. I sympathize with some of those Wiccans who worship their gods not because they believe in them but just because they like them. Of course, I separate this from belief in belief, which really is an evil.
I’m curious about your personal experiences with physical pain. What is the most painful thing you’ve experienced and what was the duration?
I’m sympathetic to your preference in the abstract, I just think you might be surprised at how little pain you’re actually willing to endure once it’s happening (not a slight against you, I think people in general overestimate what degree of physical pain they can handle as a function of the stakes involved, based largely on anecdotal and second hand experience from my time in the military).
At the risk of being overly morbid, I have high confidence (>95%) that I could have you begging for death inside of an hour if that were my goal (don’t worry, it’s certainly not). An unfriendly AI capable of keeping you alive for eternity just to torture you would be capable of making you experience worse pain than anyone ever has in the history of our species so far. I believe you that you might sign a piece of paper to pre-commit to an eternity of torture vice simple death. I just think you’d be very very upset about that decision. Probably less than 5 minutes into it.
I agree with everything you said, but I think it’s worth noting:
IIRC, there’s an Australian jellyfish with venom so painful that one of the symptoms is begging for death After it wears off, though, preferences regarding death revert to normal. I would argue torture is equivalent to wireheading with regards to preferences, only inverted. So “tortured!me would accept death if offered” need not contradict “current!me should not accept death over torture”.
The jellyfish I had in mind is Carukia barnesi, which causes irukandji syndrome. Wikipedia seems to imply the “begging for death” aspect may actually be a separate biochemical phenomenon, but the source provided doesn’t actually claim this—just that sufferers feel “anxious” and a “sense of impending doom”.
As soon as you stop torturing him though—and it’s clear that the torture will not resume—I have high confidence (>95%) that he would go back to wanting to live.
The relevant question, I think, is not whether an individual would cease wanting to die after the torture had ended. If then offered a choice between death and more torture (for a very long time, and with no afterward to look forward to), would dclayh (or some other person in the same situation) change their mind?
I agree with you, and when I brought the subject up elsewhere on this site I was met with incredulity and hypotheticals which seemed calculated to prove I didn’t actually feel that way.
I’m not sure I’d call it controversial, but I have the opposite preference myself.
Come to think of it, from my point of view, the fairly commonly-pushed myth of
control-freak gods (insert &hellfire_preacher) looks rather similar to being
tortured by an uFAI, and makes simple nonexistence look like an attractive
alternative.
If I have surgery, I want anesthesia; if I have a pain flare at 6 or above, I take sleeping pills and try to sleep. So I prefer losing a few hours of conscious life to experiencing moderate to severe pain for a few hours. I would not want to be anesthetized for six months I’d otherwise spend at a 6, but I would if it was a 7.
I think the criterion is “Yeah, screaming in pain, but can I watch Sherlock?”. If I can do moderately interesting things then I can just get used to the pain, but if the pain is severe enough to take over my whole mind then no dice. Transhuman torture is definitely the latter.
Well, you wake up after the six months. Unless you expect to wake up from death (in which case it’s a perfectly logical argument, I think) then there does seem to be a difference. As I said, I’m not sure if this difference is relevant, but it seems like it might be.
I don’t like libertarianism. It makes some really good points, and clearly there are lots of things government should stay out of, but the whole narrative of government as the evil villain that can never do anything right strikes me as more of a heroic myth than a useful way to shape policy. This only applies to libertarians who go overboard, though. I like Will Wilkinson, but I hate Lew Rockwell.
I think the better class of mystics probably know some things about the mind the rest of us don’t. I tend to trust yogis who say they’ve achieved perfect bliss after years of meditation, although I think there’s a neurological explanation (and would like to know what it is). I think Crowley’s project to systematize and scientifically explain mysticism had some good results even though he did go utterly off the deep end.
I am not sure I will sign up for cryonics, although I am still seriously considering it. The probability of ending up immortal and stuck in a dystopia where I couldn’t commit suicide scares me too much.
I have a very hard time going under 2-3% belief in anything that lots of other people believe. This includes religion, UFOs, and ESP. Not astrology though, oddly enough; I’ll happily go so low on that one it’d take exponential notation to describe properly.
I like religion. I don’t believe it, I just like it. Greek mythology is my favorite, but I think the Abrahamic religions are pretty neat too.
I am a very hard-core utilitarian, and happily accept John Maxwell’s altruist argument. I sorta accept Torture vs. Dust Specks on a rational but not an emotional level.
I am still not entirely convinced that irrationality can’t be fun. I sympathize with some of those Wiccans who worship their gods not because they believe in them but just because they like them. Of course, I separate this from belief in belief, which really is an evil.
Personally I’d prefer an eternity of being tortured by an unFriendly AI to simple death. Is that controversial?
I’m curious about your personal experiences with physical pain. What is the most painful thing you’ve experienced and what was the duration?
I’m sympathetic to your preference in the abstract, I just think you might be surprised at how little pain you’re actually willing to endure once it’s happening (not a slight against you, I think people in general overestimate what degree of physical pain they can handle as a function of the stakes involved, based largely on anecdotal and second hand experience from my time in the military).
At the risk of being overly morbid, I have high confidence (>95%) that I could have you begging for death inside of an hour if that were my goal (don’t worry, it’s certainly not). An unfriendly AI capable of keeping you alive for eternity just to torture you would be capable of making you experience worse pain than anyone ever has in the history of our species so far. I believe you that you might sign a piece of paper to pre-commit to an eternity of torture vice simple death. I just think you’d be very very upset about that decision. Probably less than 5 minutes into it.
I agree with everything you said, but I think it’s worth noting:
IIRC, there’s an Australian jellyfish with venom so painful that one of the symptoms is begging for death After it wears off, though, preferences regarding death revert to normal. I would argue torture is equivalent to wireheading with regards to preferences, only inverted. So “tortured!me would accept death if offered” need not contradict “current!me should not accept death over torture”.
The jellyfish I had in mind is Carukia barnesi, which causes irukandji syndrome. Wikipedia seems to imply the “begging for death” aspect may actually be a separate biochemical phenomenon, but the source provided doesn’t actually claim this—just that sufferers feel “anxious” and a “sense of impending doom”.
I would definitely pre-commit to immortality.
As soon as you stop torturing him though—and it’s clear that the torture will not resume—I have high confidence (>95%) that he would go back to wanting to live.
The relevant question, I think, is not whether an individual would cease wanting to die after the torture had ended. If then offered a choice between death and more torture (for a very long time, and with no afterward to look forward to), would dclayh (or some other person in the same situation) change their mind?
Apparently it is.
I agree with you, and when I brought the subject up elsewhere on this site I was met with incredulity and hypotheticals which seemed calculated to prove I didn’t actually feel that way.
I’m not sure I’d call it controversial, but I have the opposite preference myself. Come to think of it, from my point of view, the fairly commonly-pushed myth of control-freak gods (insert &hellfire_preacher) looks rather similar to being tortured by an uFAI, and makes simple nonexistence look like an attractive alternative.
Are you claiming you would rather die than be bossed around? Or are you comparing hell to torture by an uFAI?
If I have surgery, I want anesthesia; if I have a pain flare at 6 or above, I take sleeping pills and try to sleep. So I prefer losing a few hours of conscious life to experiencing moderate to severe pain for a few hours. I would not want to be anesthetized for six months I’d otherwise spend at a 6, but I would if it was a 7.
I think the criterion is “Yeah, screaming in pain, but can I watch Sherlock?”. If I can do moderately interesting things then I can just get used to the pain, but if the pain is severe enough to take over my whole mind then no dice. Transhuman torture is definitely the latter.
I’m not sure it’s fair to compare “anesthetized for six months” to “dead, permanently”.
Well I don’t have much experience with death and eternal life. What goes wrong in extrapolating from hours or months to eternity?
Well, you wake up after the six months. Unless you expect to wake up from death (in which case it’s a perfectly logical argument, I think) then there does seem to be a difference. As I said, I’m not sure if this difference is relevant, but it seems like it might be.
Plenty of libertarians agree with you on #1.