As are many smart people within the USA, obviously, or were you being sarcastic and trying to suggest that the original quote somehow implies a belief that the USA is immune from those problems?
I think he was being sarcastic and trying to suggest that the original quote failed to take note that everyone thinks they are immune from those problems, including the person who decided the past was ‘wrong’ about them. I’m also pretty sure cousin_it is Russian, if that’s relevant. The USA thing was just a tasteful addition, the way I see it. I laughed. (His use of an exclamation point and a look at the top contributors list on the right also indicate sarcasm.)
Edit: I agree with Nick below. It was just a joke. Which I enjoyed.
When I read the original quote, I noted the conspicuous absence of any kind of positive assertion that the speaker is immune from those problems, and I read it as cautioning us against thinking that we are not similarly wrong about some of those very problems and other important problems that we are blind to.
Did you read it in the context of the atheist blog post Eliezer linked to? I agree that the quote was possibly meant to be cautionary, but I think it was primarily meant to show that believing in things 200 years old is generally not a good idea. Maybe I misunderstood the point of the post, though; the cautionary value is a more useful interpretation for us aspiring rationalists, and ‘don’t put faith in ancient wisdom’ is rather simple advice by comparison. Because of that, context be damned (even if I did interpret it as was meant), I’m going to switch to your interpretation. :)
I hadn’t clicked through to read the original, but having just done so, I note that the very next paragraph after the given quote is:
Or so we believe. We think we are better informed than they were. Are we? Is our truth more reliable than their truth?
Which doesn’t exactly smack of over-confidence and American arrogance to my ear.
ETA: also, from things he said elsewhere in the essay, it seems likely to me that he had in mind more than “a few centuries” in the essay, despite the words in the quote, since he distinguishes again and again between pre-scientific and scientific ways of investigating and understanding the world.
Oh jeeze, how did I miss that? Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. About the ETA, I noticed that too, which may be relevant to another discussion I saw nested under the original quotation...
Whoops, instant controversy =) I didn’t mean to accuse the original quote of American nationalism; that would be like accusing early Christians of Jewish or Roman nationalism. Every new moral system sees itself as universal. But also every moral system has some geographical origin from where it spreads, by force if necessary. For the moral system that uses the terms “racism” and “sexism”, the place of origin is the USA.
So anybody who uses the terms “racism” and “sexism” (and presumably the related words “race” and “sex” when used in the same sense) -- for instance, in arguing against distinguishing on the basis of race or sex or for guaranteeing the equality of rights and liberties regardless of sex, race, nationality … -- necessarily has one particular moral system, a moral system that originates in the USA, and despite women’s suffrage originating in countries other than the USA, somebody who uses the word ‘sexism’ in the same sentence as ‘racism’ is almost certainly either from the USA and subject to stereotypical US nationalism or subscribes to the One Unique True Moral System of the USA?
Not sure why this was downvoted. The word ‘racism’ was coined in pre-WWII Europe, the word ‘sexism’ was coined in the US during the 1960s. The movements/ moral systems against such things have been widespread, and I’m not sure it makes sense to say they started anywhere besides “Western civilization”. Moral systems don’t have founding moments anyway, they evolve out of other moral systems and historical conditions. I would say that the term racism probably plays a bigger role in American discourse than elsewhere, if only because the US is more racially diverse than most of the rest of the world.
The extent to which the usage of these terms is indicative of a particular moral system is just a question of high def versus low def. If you look closely you see differences, if you don’t, it all looks the same. If your views are in the general vicinity of where cousin-it was aiming you probably see issues involving racism and sexism. If you are far from cousin-it’s target you may well not see the differences between moral systems that use the terms racism and sexism. Though don’t “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism” count as uses of these terms? The moral system that uses those terms pretty obviously distinct from the moral system that I think cousin_it is referring to.
Amusingly, your holy indignance at hearing such stereotypes isn’t a human universal either—it’s part of the same particular moral system I was talking about.
I was trying to point out why part of your post was nonsense, despite making some valid points, and sending your troll back back at you. Words—with a few exceptions like ‘objectivism’—are not as strongly associated with a single moral system as you suggest. There is no single moral system that originates in the USA, and no single moral system that everybody who uses the terms “racism” and “sexism” in a sentence holds. And unless you think that Russia has adopted the moral system “whose place of origin is the USA”, 2.19.2 in the Russian constitution poses a problem for you, unless you assert that using the tokens “racism” and “sexism” is sufficient for your thesis to hold but spelling out that racism and sexism are bad without using those tokens somehow makes your hypothesis not apply.
P.S. Maybe your idea of stereotypical Americans causes you to mistake my response for “holy indignance”. For what it’s worth, I’m not indignant or angry, just amused. Perhaps I should have added some smileys? And for your information, since I know you’re Russian, I wasn’t born or raised in America, though I live there now and am a naturalized citizen.
And unless you think that Russia has adopted the moral system “whose place of origin is the USA”
Kind of. The current Russian constitution was written at the extreme high point of Russian popular affection for the American way of life, and the people who wrote it were big fans of the US constitution. Such attitudes have gone way down since then.
unless you assert that using the tokens “racism” and “sexism” is sufficient for your thesis to hold but spelling out that racism and sexism are bad without using those tokens somehow makes your hypothesis not apply.
Now I’m curious: why does this particular assertion look absurd to you? From where I stand, using marker words like “racism” and “sexism” looks like a pretty clear case of signaling. That’s like the difference between saying cheating on your spouse is bad, and saying cheating is “a sin”.
I could agree with you that “racism” and “sexism” are often used only for signaling, and even that they are (probably) used more for that purpose in the USA than elsewhere, on average, but I don’t agree that they’re only used for that purpose, and I don’t agree that they’re a product of one moral system or that they’re only used by people who hold that moral system. Some people use the words because it’s easier to say one word than ten words, easier to say “racism” than to speak a whole sentence when you know the listener will understand that you are referring to the systematic differential treatment of people on the basis of skin color.
Just keep a lid on the nationalism. Sterling moral leadership isn’t always something associated with the USA. We don’t want to get into a discussion on the topic but I wouldn’t leave such implications unchallenged. I might have to make comparisons to Canada and things would go downhill from there! :)
Yes, “about these pressing moral issues!” screams sarcasm, but I don’t see how the original quote assumes that people in the USA somehow believe they have a unique claim to being less wrong, which would make the most sense as a target of the sarcasm. The quote isn’t saying that unlike our smartest ancestors, we do have all the answers, only that we’re less wrong (and should suspect that there’s probably much that we’re still over-confidently wrong about), and isn’t saying that we is any particular nationality (nor is any strongly implied).
And even today, many smart people outside the USA are still wrong about these pressing moral issues!
But even those supposed ‘conservatives’ and ‘traditionals’ still hold views different from their ancestors—or are there heaps of divine rights of kings theorists floating around South America I am not familiar with?
And even today, many smart people outside the USA are still wrong about these pressing moral issues!
As are many smart people within the USA, obviously, or were you being sarcastic and trying to suggest that the original quote somehow implies a belief that the USA is immune from those problems?
I think he was being sarcastic and trying to suggest that the original quote failed to take note that everyone thinks they are immune from those problems, including the person who decided the past was ‘wrong’ about them. I’m also pretty sure cousin_it is Russian, if that’s relevant. The USA thing was just a tasteful addition, the way I see it. I laughed. (His use of an exclamation point and a look at the top contributors list on the right also indicate sarcasm.)
Edit: I agree with Nick below. It was just a joke. Which I enjoyed.
When I read the original quote, I noted the conspicuous absence of any kind of positive assertion that the speaker is immune from those problems, and I read it as cautioning us against thinking that we are not similarly wrong about some of those very problems and other important problems that we are blind to.
Did you read it in the context of the atheist blog post Eliezer linked to? I agree that the quote was possibly meant to be cautionary, but I think it was primarily meant to show that believing in things 200 years old is generally not a good idea. Maybe I misunderstood the point of the post, though; the cautionary value is a more useful interpretation for us aspiring rationalists, and ‘don’t put faith in ancient wisdom’ is rather simple advice by comparison. Because of that, context be damned (even if I did interpret it as was meant), I’m going to switch to your interpretation. :)
I hadn’t clicked through to read the original, but having just done so, I note that the very next paragraph after the given quote is:
Which doesn’t exactly smack of over-confidence and American arrogance to my ear.
ETA: also, from things he said elsewhere in the essay, it seems likely to me that he had in mind more than “a few centuries” in the essay, despite the words in the quote, since he distinguishes again and again between pre-scientific and scientific ways of investigating and understanding the world.
Oh jeeze, how did I miss that? Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. About the ETA, I noticed that too, which may be relevant to another discussion I saw nested under the original quotation...
Whoops, instant controversy =) I didn’t mean to accuse the original quote of American nationalism; that would be like accusing early Christians of Jewish or Roman nationalism. Every new moral system sees itself as universal. But also every moral system has some geographical origin from where it spreads, by force if necessary. For the moral system that uses the terms “racism” and “sexism”, the place of origin is the USA.
So anybody who uses the terms “racism” and “sexism” (and presumably the related words “race” and “sex” when used in the same sense) -- for instance, in arguing against distinguishing on the basis of race or sex or for guaranteeing the equality of rights and liberties regardless of sex, race, nationality … -- necessarily has one particular moral system, a moral system that originates in the USA, and despite women’s suffrage originating in countries other than the USA, somebody who uses the word ‘sexism’ in the same sentence as ‘racism’ is almost certainly either from the USA and subject to stereotypical US nationalism or subscribes to the One Unique True Moral System of the USA?
Not sure why this was downvoted. The word ‘racism’ was coined in pre-WWII Europe, the word ‘sexism’ was coined in the US during the 1960s. The movements/ moral systems against such things have been widespread, and I’m not sure it makes sense to say they started anywhere besides “Western civilization”. Moral systems don’t have founding moments anyway, they evolve out of other moral systems and historical conditions. I would say that the term racism probably plays a bigger role in American discourse than elsewhere, if only because the US is more racially diverse than most of the rest of the world.
The extent to which the usage of these terms is indicative of a particular moral system is just a question of high def versus low def. If you look closely you see differences, if you don’t, it all looks the same. If your views are in the general vicinity of where cousin-it was aiming you probably see issues involving racism and sexism. If you are far from cousin-it’s target you may well not see the differences between moral systems that use the terms racism and sexism. Though don’t “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism” count as uses of these terms? The moral system that uses those terms pretty obviously distinct from the moral system that I think cousin_it is referring to.
Not by me. But the readability is abysmal enough that I at least had second thoughts before voting it up to 0..
Amusingly, your holy indignance at hearing such stereotypes isn’t a human universal either—it’s part of the same particular moral system I was talking about.
PS: I didn’t downvote you.
I was trying to point out why part of your post was nonsense, despite making some valid points, and sending your troll back back at you. Words—with a few exceptions like ‘objectivism’—are not as strongly associated with a single moral system as you suggest. There is no single moral system that originates in the USA, and no single moral system that everybody who uses the terms “racism” and “sexism” in a sentence holds. And unless you think that Russia has adopted the moral system “whose place of origin is the USA”, 2.19.2 in the Russian constitution poses a problem for you, unless you assert that using the tokens “racism” and “sexism” is sufficient for your thesis to hold but spelling out that racism and sexism are bad without using those tokens somehow makes your hypothesis not apply.
P.S. Maybe your idea of stereotypical Americans causes you to mistake my response for “holy indignance”. For what it’s worth, I’m not indignant or angry, just amused. Perhaps I should have added some smileys? And for your information, since I know you’re Russian, I wasn’t born or raised in America, though I live there now and am a naturalized citizen.
Kind of. The current Russian constitution was written at the extreme high point of Russian popular affection for the American way of life, and the people who wrote it were big fans of the US constitution. Such attitudes have gone way down since then.
Now I’m curious: why does this particular assertion look absurd to you? From where I stand, using marker words like “racism” and “sexism” looks like a pretty clear case of signaling. That’s like the difference between saying cheating on your spouse is bad, and saying cheating is “a sin”.
I could agree with you that “racism” and “sexism” are often used only for signaling, and even that they are (probably) used more for that purpose in the USA than elsewhere, on average, but I don’t agree that they’re only used for that purpose, and I don’t agree that they’re a product of one moral system or that they’re only used by people who hold that moral system. Some people use the words because it’s easier to say one word than ten words, easier to say “racism” than to speak a whole sentence when you know the listener will understand that you are referring to the systematic differential treatment of people on the basis of skin color.
Many crazy moral systems see themselves as (complete and) universal. It’s a trivial enough failure, so one should be able to do better.
Just keep a lid on the nationalism. Sterling moral leadership isn’t always something associated with the USA. We don’t want to get into a discussion on the topic but I wouldn’t leave such implications unchallenged. I might have to make comparisons to Canada and things would go downhill from there! :)
I certainly hope he was being sarcastic. Even the fact that we suspect he may not be is rather telling.
Yes, “about these pressing moral issues!” screams sarcasm, but I don’t see how the original quote assumes that people in the USA somehow believe they have a unique claim to being less wrong, which would make the most sense as a target of the sarcasm. The quote isn’t saying that unlike our smartest ancestors, we do have all the answers, only that we’re less wrong (and should suspect that there’s probably much that we’re still over-confidently wrong about), and isn’t saying that we is any particular nationality (nor is any strongly implied).
Pretty sure he was sarcastically attacking something other than the original comment.
But even those supposed ‘conservatives’ and ‘traditionals’ still hold views different from their ancestors—or are there heaps of divine rights of kings theorists floating around South America I am not familiar with?
Many people inside the USA are wrong about these things too.