One is—Is it appropriate for any person to recline their seat?
The other is—If you are a non-recliner and a seat is reclined unto you, what is the appropriate reaction?
The last is—If you recline unto a non-recliner and they ask for you to put your seat in the upright position, what is the ethical response?
For the first question, one way I can think to test this would be to examine the differences in total leg-room volume when everyone is not reclined against when everyone is reclined.
If I had more time in the day, I could certainly come up with more detailed, rigorous methods to discern the best possible outcome for passengers as it relates to reclining. There is some optimal answer here, so long as we choose our variable ( leg room, passenger satisfaction, etc. ). The best answer to this question would be based on the optimization of some dimension.
The second question is far more interesting. If you are a non-recliner a seat is reclined onto you, what do you do?
Your ultimate goal is to get the person to put their seat back to a more upright position. Your best bet is to remain truthful and look to elicit their sympathy. Also, be open to compromise. Do not expect them to go full upright.
First, I would see if there’s an objective criteria that would allow you to ask for a decrease in their recline angle. Maybe you can’t cross your legs. Maybe you can’t read. Maybe the trey is hitting your stomach. There must be some material circumstance you can use as a basis for your case.
Second, I would ask for something specific, like “Can you move up half way?” Don’t ask for them to go all the way up. They’re going to interpret this as aggression and dig their heals in.
Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.
Finally, if they really try to jerk you around, stand your ground and just repeat your point. This is why you look for a really good objective basis. Just keep saying “Well, I know you wanna stay reclined, but I can’t read my book”. Eventually, people will change just because you’re being annoying. Don’t get angry, though. Just be annoying and seem sorta dumb.
The third question is somewhat answered by the previous. Meet the person half way. If they’re being rude, tell them you don’t appreciate their tone. I wouldn’t recline all the way up unless they were really overweight, tall, or something else. Half way seems reasonable.
I’ve been typing this for too long. Hope everyone enjoys this. Interesting prompt.
Eventually, people will change just because you’re being annoying.
More likely that they’ll ignore you, and if you do something that intrudes upon them despite this, they’ll complain to a flight attendant. That interaction is unlikely to resolve in your favor (and quite rightly so).
My experience is the contrary. People find it quite tough to ignore someone speaking to them directly.
Furthermore, I never suggested doing anything that intrudes upon them. My advice is to restate your case a few times and aim for compromise. This is only as intrusive as the recline itself.
It’s also worth noting that while you’re not trying to be annoying, the recliner is likely to perceive you as such. You are not being intentionally annoying, though. This is something that ought to have been mentioned, admittedly.
Regarding the flight attendant comment, you have nothing to loose here but a short moment’s embarrassment, if that.
Well, the article says he was allowed to reboard after he deleted his tweet, and was offered vouchers in recompense, so it sounds like it was one employee’s initiative rather than the airline’s policy, and it wasn’t that bad.
Yes, but did the airline punish the employee? Did they publicly announce a clear and unambiguous change to their policy that would ensure no such thing would happen again? Of course not. (Also—vouchers, hah! The vouchers were for $50, which is what? One-tenth the cost of a plane ticket? Less? Pocket change. A triviality.)
As for “allowed to reboard after he deleted his tweet”—you say this as if it makes it better, but in fact it’s totally outrageous. For an airline to police a customer’s—not an employee’s, but a customer’s!—speech like this is an egregious abuse. The man apparently plans never to fly with that airline again, which is completely understandable. That airline deserves to go out of business entirely for this sort of behavior.
The message they send, after all, is clear: if you behave in a way that an airline employee even slightly dislikes, you can be kicked off a flight you paid for. Yes, they might later give you some irrelevant vouchers for trivial amounts of money. That changes nothing.
That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
That’s not really a fitting comparison to what I am proposing. That cannot be used to say “But there is a single example of this occurring” ( i.e an instantiation ).
I am proposing a common sense, applicable solution in the case that someone finds themselves unable to perform certain tasks on a flight because the person in front of them is reclining.
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor did my original post explicitly advise against this.
That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
(Are you tempted to claim that your proposed actions don’t constitute harassment? And you’re probably right: your actual actions, as perceived by you, probably can’t be called harassment by a reasonable person. What about your actions as reported by the other passenger, as those actions are perceived by said other passenger? Are those actions harassment? Sure they are, once the other person says “the person behind me angrily demanded that I not recline; they spoke to me in a very threatening tone of voice; I feel very unsafe sharing a flight with this person”. Then the flight attendant asks you: “sir/madam, did you speak to the passenger in front of you about not reclining their seat?”; you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
(Or do you mean that the person behind the recliner should complain? But what would be the complaint? “The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that. The flight attendant would judge you to be the troublemaker, for that complaint. In other words, you lose if you complain, and you also lose if the other person complains about your attempted resolution.)
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
You are, at this point, not arguing with any good faith.
First, there are obvious, substantial differences between my post and your example.
Second, my original post, if read with the least possible charity, was not advocating for harassment. I wrote “Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.”
you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
Thanks bud, but I’ll keep doubting this one.
There would be other passengers, in the least. This is really such a silly argument at this point. No airline is going to remove you for asking someone to un-recline their seat a few times.
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
As well as working towards a normal human compromise with the other passenger.
“The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that.
They have the right to do this so long as the aircraft materially allows it and the airline’s T&C’s contractually allow it.
I’m not going to waste my time working this out. You could make a request for some kind of change so that reclining is less easy, a person cannot recline as much, blah blah.
I think that other people consider this example as a means to discuss some far more abstract ideas of what is morally right in the situation. This was mentioned in my post as:
Is it appropriate for any person to recline their seat?
To which I said that there is a definite right answer to this question, based on the optimization of some dimension. This is always what is behind morality, in any case—It is just a rule for optimizing something, whether it be autonomy, privacy, etc.
What I should have also said here is that there is absolutely no way anyone is answering this question here. Furthermore, in the circumstance you find yourself reclining upon someone that does not want you to recline or vice versa, the answer to this question does not really matter.
In real, lived life your goal should not be to cause such a stir up in trivial situations like these. It doesn’t matter who is correct in mathematical or philosophical sense. So if someone reclines unto you, ask a few times if they would un-recline a bit. Ask them a few times, but stay polite. If it’s the opposite case, tell them you’ll meet them half way.
I know that people may not see this as the point of the thread. Maybe I’m out of the loop, maybe I’m making something simple that should really be complicated.
Depending on how they act, I might (if I were to fly in a plane) cause enough stirrup to stand up for my rights, taking into account the calculated risk of ending up worse off. There is an externality of signalling to other people what my (and their) rights are, which has additional positive value.
If someone suggested the idea of reducing your recline by 50% politely, would you really, in actual lived life, reply making a protest of your “rights”?
I implore you to really think of what this would be like in real life. Someone nicely asking for this. It’s a long flight.
Also, to consider the views of other people here and the positive effects of your signaling is speculative at best. You don’t know how people will perceive you. Sure, you think you are standing up for what is obviously you right. You have no way to verify this is what other’s believe though.
That just seems like something rather shaky to consider a positive externality. Alternatively, you could maybe make the case that there is always value to protecting your rights, a la MLK’s famous “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”, and I would salute your courage to die on that hill, as you surely would die.
I, like, I assume, everyone else, occasionally encounter situations of having to speak up in very uncomfortable situations, in “actual lived life.” In this hypothetical situation, I’d probably reduce my recline. I’d speak up if they reclined into me too much, leaving me not enough space.
We never know how other people will perceive us, or the consequences (or, for that matter, what’s right) with certainty. But the null decision (or the decision to do whatever causes the least stirrup) is a decision as well—namely, it’s a decision saying “the balance of evidence is such that I believe the right thing to do is to cause the least stirrup possible” (assuming the idealized case of an agent who optimizes for doing what is right).
There are three separate issues here.
One is—Is it appropriate for any person to recline their seat?
The other is—If you are a non-recliner and a seat is reclined unto you, what is the appropriate reaction?
The last is—If you recline unto a non-recliner and they ask for you to put your seat in the upright position, what is the ethical response?
For the first question, one way I can think to test this would be to examine the differences in total leg-room volume when everyone is not reclined against when everyone is reclined.
If I had more time in the day, I could certainly come up with more detailed, rigorous methods to discern the best possible outcome for passengers as it relates to reclining. There is some optimal answer here, so long as we choose our variable ( leg room, passenger satisfaction, etc. ). The best answer to this question would be based on the optimization of some dimension.
The second question is far more interesting. If you are a non-recliner a seat is reclined onto you, what do you do?
Your ultimate goal is to get the person to put their seat back to a more upright position. Your best bet is to remain truthful and look to elicit their sympathy. Also, be open to compromise. Do not expect them to go full upright.
First, I would see if there’s an objective criteria that would allow you to ask for a decrease in their recline angle. Maybe you can’t cross your legs. Maybe you can’t read. Maybe the trey is hitting your stomach. There must be some material circumstance you can use as a basis for your case.
Second, I would ask for something specific, like “Can you move up half way?” Don’t ask for them to go all the way up. They’re going to interpret this as aggression and dig their heals in.
Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.
Finally, if they really try to jerk you around, stand your ground and just repeat your point. This is why you look for a really good objective basis. Just keep saying “Well, I know you wanna stay reclined, but I can’t read my book”. Eventually, people will change just because you’re being annoying. Don’t get angry, though. Just be annoying and seem sorta dumb.
The third question is somewhat answered by the previous. Meet the person half way. If they’re being rude, tell them you don’t appreciate their tone. I wouldn’t recline all the way up unless they were really overweight, tall, or something else. Half way seems reasonable.
I’ve been typing this for too long. Hope everyone enjoys this. Interesting prompt.
More likely that they’ll ignore you, and if you do something that intrudes upon them despite this, they’ll complain to a flight attendant. That interaction is unlikely to resolve in your favor (and quite rightly so).
My experience is the contrary. People find it quite tough to ignore someone speaking to them directly.
Furthermore, I never suggested doing anything that intrudes upon them. My advice is to restate your case a few times and aim for compromise. This is only as intrusive as the recline itself.
It’s also worth noting that while you’re not trying to be annoying, the recliner is likely to perceive you as such. You are not being intentionally annoying, though. This is something that ought to have been mentioned, admittedly.
Regarding the flight attendant comment, you have nothing to loose here but a short moment’s embarrassment, if that.
On the contrary, you can be kicked off the flight. Airlines have done it for less.
Well, the article says he was allowed to reboard after he deleted his tweet, and was offered vouchers in recompense, so it sounds like it was one employee’s initiative rather than the airline’s policy, and it wasn’t that bad.
Yes, but did the airline punish the employee? Did they publicly announce a clear and unambiguous change to their policy that would ensure no such thing would happen again? Of course not. (Also—vouchers, hah! The vouchers were for $50, which is what? One-tenth the cost of a plane ticket? Less? Pocket change. A triviality.)
As for “allowed to reboard after he deleted his tweet”—you say this as if it makes it better, but in fact it’s totally outrageous. For an airline to police a customer’s—not an employee’s, but a customer’s!—speech like this is an egregious abuse. The man apparently plans never to fly with that airline again, which is completely understandable. That airline deserves to go out of business entirely for this sort of behavior.
The message they send, after all, is clear: if you behave in a way that an airline employee even slightly dislikes, you can be kicked off a flight you paid for. Yes, they might later give you some irrelevant vouchers for trivial amounts of money. That changes nothing.
That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
That’s not really a fitting comparison to what I am proposing. That cannot be used to say “But there is a single example of this occurring” ( i.e an instantiation ).
I am proposing a common sense, applicable solution in the case that someone finds themselves unable to perform certain tasks on a flight because the person in front of them is reclining.
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor did my original post explicitly advise against this.
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
(Are you tempted to claim that your proposed actions don’t constitute harassment? And you’re probably right: your actual actions, as perceived by you, probably can’t be called harassment by a reasonable person. What about your actions as reported by the other passenger, as those actions are perceived by said other passenger? Are those actions harassment? Sure they are, once the other person says “the person behind me angrily demanded that I not recline; they spoke to me in a very threatening tone of voice; I feel very unsafe sharing a flight with this person”. Then the flight attendant asks you: “sir/madam, did you speak to the passenger in front of you about not reclining their seat?”; you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
(Or do you mean that the person behind the recliner should complain? But what would be the complaint? “The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that. The flight attendant would judge you to be the troublemaker, for that complaint. In other words, you lose if you complain, and you also lose if the other person complains about your attempted resolution.)
You are, at this point, not arguing with any good faith.
First, there are obvious, substantial differences between my post and your example.
Second, my original post, if read with the least possible charity, was not advocating for harassment. I wrote “Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.”
Thanks bud, but I’ll keep doubting this one.
There would be other passengers, in the least. This is really such a silly argument at this point. No airline is going to remove you for asking someone to un-recline their seat a few times.
As well as working towards a normal human compromise with the other passenger.
They have the right to do this so long as the aircraft materially allows it and the airline’s T&C’s contractually allow it.
I’m not going to waste my time working this out. You could make a request for some kind of change so that reclining is less easy, a person cannot recline as much, blah blah.
This discussion seems to be about whether it’s moral, not about whether it’s technically possible/allowed by the terms.
This isn’t enough to establish it’s right—it’s easy to imagine many things that are materially possible and contractually allowed, but morally wrong.
That’s not a bad point.
I think that other people consider this example as a means to discuss some far more abstract ideas of what is morally right in the situation. This was mentioned in my post as:
To which I said that there is a definite right answer to this question, based on the optimization of some dimension. This is always what is behind morality, in any case—It is just a rule for optimizing something, whether it be autonomy, privacy, etc.
What I should have also said here is that there is absolutely no way anyone is answering this question here. Furthermore, in the circumstance you find yourself reclining upon someone that does not want you to recline or vice versa, the answer to this question does not really matter.
In real, lived life your goal should not be to cause such a stir up in trivial situations like these. It doesn’t matter who is correct in mathematical or philosophical sense. So if someone reclines unto you, ask a few times if they would un-recline a bit. Ask them a few times, but stay polite. If it’s the opposite case, tell them you’ll meet them half way.
I know that people may not see this as the point of the thread. Maybe I’m out of the loop, maybe I’m making something simple that should really be complicated.
Doing whatever leads to avoiding causing a stirrup is definitely one of the options.
What are some reasonable alternatives in the circumstance that someone is reclining unto your or requesting you un-recline?
Depending on how they act, I might (if I were to fly in a plane) cause enough stirrup to stand up for my rights, taking into account the calculated risk of ending up worse off. There is an externality of signalling to other people what my (and their) rights are, which has additional positive value.
How would they have to act for this to happen?
If someone suggested the idea of reducing your recline by 50% politely, would you really, in actual lived life, reply making a protest of your “rights”?
I implore you to really think of what this would be like in real life. Someone nicely asking for this. It’s a long flight.
Also, to consider the views of other people here and the positive effects of your signaling is speculative at best. You don’t know how people will perceive you. Sure, you think you are standing up for what is obviously you right. You have no way to verify this is what other’s believe though.
That just seems like something rather shaky to consider a positive externality. Alternatively, you could maybe make the case that there is always value to protecting your rights, a la MLK’s famous “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”, and I would salute your courage to die on that hill, as you surely would die.
I, like, I assume, everyone else, occasionally encounter situations of having to speak up in very uncomfortable situations, in “actual lived life.” In this hypothetical situation, I’d probably reduce my recline. I’d speak up if they reclined into me too much, leaving me not enough space.
We never know how other people will perceive us, or the consequences (or, for that matter, what’s right) with certainty. But the null decision (or the decision to do whatever causes the least stirrup) is a decision as well—namely, it’s a decision saying “the balance of evidence is such that I believe the right thing to do is to cause the least stirrup possible” (assuming the idealized case of an agent who optimizes for doing what is right).