There is something slippery about the ways you write your posts, I’ve read several of them and that’s the impression I’m constantly being left with. You make a couple of generally true statements then apparently jump to a conclusion which doesn’t actually follow from them but feels somewhat relevant.
Here, as a demonstration, I try to hold the general fabula of your argument but replace bad faith with not having human values:
People get touchy about accusation of being inhumane. They think that you shouldn’t dehumanize, but that if you’ve determined something doesn’t have human values, you shouldn’t even be talking to them, that you need to exile them.
However, being inhumane doesn’t actually mean having malicious intent. It can also mean neutrality. Also human values are extremely rare. Most of the objects in the universe do not have them. And the term human values isn’t even well defined.
And that’s why we shouldn’t try to optimize for human values.
I think it’s clear that the last sentence doesn’t actually follow from the previous two paragraphs. The fact that most of the reality doesn’t have human values doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t create norms promoting them and clever plans that would actually make the reality more aligned with human values. There is a self-fulfiling component here. Our agency and coordination can make human values more widespread only if we actually try to do it.
Likewise, the fact that there are reasons why people generally do have hidden motives, and most conversations are not honest attempts to find truth between two unbiasly disagreeing parties doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to uphold good faith promoting norms: demand good faith and do our best to engage with as much good faith as we can muster, while talking to other people who do the same. After all, if no one does it then there won’t be any good faith engagement at all.
It’s an obvious case of iterated prisoners dilemma. Cooperation means doing your best to engage with the point of discussion in an honestly truth seeking way. Defection—propagating your own view point by any means necessary. Clearly, cooperating with a defector isn’t helpful. So It’s useful to have norms to disincentivise defection, exiling them from the conversation.
In practise, there is a whole spectrum between being perfectly good faith and pushing your own agenda by every dirty trick in the book. Some people just do not know how to do better, some people are too much under control of their biases, some people can be just having fun by trolling. There can be different reasons why people are not engaging in the best possible faith, and maliciousness of intent is irrelevant. Whatever your reasons if you can’t uphold the required level—there is nothing to talk about. Please do better and come again.
And of course it makes sense to have some compassion here and forgive occasional slips when it seems that the person is honestly trying to engage in good faith. Just as in general with iterated prisonners dilemma with small error probability.
Part of the acting in good faith is indeed assuming that your partner is also acting in good faith. You literally have faith in them in this regard. Unless of course, they gave you substantial reasons to think that they are not upfolding their part of the bargain. Good faith is supposed to be the initial assumption. And then you can be updated by the evidence.
I think the logic of prisonners dilemma clearly shows why “assuming good faith” and “acting in good faith” can’t be properly separated from each other. If you do not not assume that the other person will cooperate you do not have any reason to cooperate in return. If you are not actually thinking that cooperation is possible and yet you still try to cooperate, you are just behaving irrationally.
Part of the acting in good faith is indeed assuming that your partner is also acting in good faith.
Not if you define the terms the way the OP defined them. If you see acting in good faith as being focused on learning what’s true, falsely assuming that your partner is acting in good faith is a hindrance.
Part of the acting in good faith is indeed assuming that your partner is also acting in good faith.
That’s not even slightly what the terms “good faith” / “bad faith” mean. Zack explains very clearly what’s being referred to, and you’re ignoring that in favor of your own idiosyncratic definition. That’s not a disagreement—it’s a mistake on your part.
Dictionary editors are not the Legislators of Language. Zach notices that common usage doesn’t exactly fit the dictionary. Then he notice that dictionary meaning probably doesn’t carve reality by its joints. If there is a mistake her it’s on the part of the dictionaries for not capturing the way humans use the words and the way the reality is jointed. Then he goes on how if we accept the dictionary definition at face value being touchy about bad faith accusation doesn’t make any sense, we should assume bad faith and that acting in bad faith is normal. Either that or we should abandon the terms all together as meaningless.
I explain the way the words are actually being used, with the connection between acting in good faith, expecting good faith and demanding good faith grounded in the logic of prisoners dilemma. This common usage doesn’t have all the disadvantages that Zach mentioned. It seem to carve reality properly. So we should just use the better definition instead of abondoning the terms.
There is something slippery about the ways you write your posts, I’ve read several of them and that’s the impression I’m constantly being left with. You make a couple of generally true statements then apparently jump to a conclusion which doesn’t actually follow from them but feels somewhat relevant.
Here, as a demonstration, I try to hold the general fabula of your argument but replace bad faith with not having human values:
I think it’s clear that the last sentence doesn’t actually follow from the previous two paragraphs. The fact that most of the reality doesn’t have human values doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t create norms promoting them and clever plans that would actually make the reality more aligned with human values. There is a self-fulfiling component here. Our agency and coordination can make human values more widespread only if we actually try to do it.
Likewise, the fact that there are reasons why people generally do have hidden motives, and most conversations are not honest attempts to find truth between two unbiasly disagreeing parties doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to uphold good faith promoting norms: demand good faith and do our best to engage with as much good faith as we can muster, while talking to other people who do the same. After all, if no one does it then there won’t be any good faith engagement at all.
It’s an obvious case of iterated prisoners dilemma. Cooperation means doing your best to engage with the point of discussion in an honestly truth seeking way. Defection—propagating your own view point by any means necessary. Clearly, cooperating with a defector isn’t helpful. So It’s useful to have norms to disincentivise defection, exiling them from the conversation.
In practise, there is a whole spectrum between being perfectly good faith and pushing your own agenda by every dirty trick in the book. Some people just do not know how to do better, some people are too much under control of their biases, some people can be just having fun by trolling. There can be different reasons why people are not engaging in the best possible faith, and maliciousness of intent is irrelevant. Whatever your reasons if you can’t uphold the required level—there is nothing to talk about. Please do better and come again.
And of course it makes sense to have some compassion here and forgive occasional slips when it seems that the person is honestly trying to engage in good faith. Just as in general with iterated prisonners dilemma with small error probability.
It seems like you’re conflating acting in good faith with assuming that other people are acting in good faith.
You’re saying that we should act in good faith. Zack is saying we shouldn’t assume that other people are acting in good faith.
Is there actually a disagreement?
Part of the acting in good faith is indeed assuming that your partner is also acting in good faith. You literally have faith in them in this regard. Unless of course, they gave you substantial reasons to think that they are not upfolding their part of the bargain. Good faith is supposed to be the initial assumption. And then you can be updated by the evidence.
I think the logic of prisonners dilemma clearly shows why “assuming good faith” and “acting in good faith” can’t be properly separated from each other. If you do not not assume that the other person will cooperate you do not have any reason to cooperate in return. If you are not actually thinking that cooperation is possible and yet you still try to cooperate, you are just behaving irrationally.
Not if you define the terms the way the OP defined them. If you see acting in good faith as being focused on learning what’s true, falsely assuming that your partner is acting in good faith is a hindrance.
That’s not even slightly what the terms “good faith” / “bad faith” mean. Zack explains very clearly what’s being referred to, and you’re ignoring that in favor of your own idiosyncratic definition. That’s not a disagreement—it’s a mistake on your part.
Dictionary editors are not the Legislators of Language. Zach notices that common usage doesn’t exactly fit the dictionary. Then he notice that dictionary meaning probably doesn’t carve reality by its joints.
If there is a mistake her it’s on the part of the dictionaries for not capturing the way humans use the words and the way the reality is jointed. Then he goes on how if we accept the dictionary definition at face value being touchy about bad faith accusation doesn’t make any sense, we should assume bad faith and that acting in bad faith is normal. Either that or we should abandon the terms all together as meaningless.
I explain the way the words are actually being used, with the connection between acting in good faith, expecting good faith and demanding good faith grounded in the logic of prisoners dilemma. This common usage doesn’t have all the disadvantages that Zach mentioned. It seem to carve reality properly. So we should just use the better definition instead of abondoning the terms.