No to the first, yes to the second, but I lost brain cells going to the first meeting.
I’m already involved in some groups, untasteful though I find them. The problem is not being in groups per se, but starting conversations with random people.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
As you may have gathered from previous interactions with me and others here, I’m generally careful about my phrasing when I do give advice: I normally preface it with “Here is what I recommend” or the like. I wasn’t giving you advice yet, but collecting information prior to giving advice.
I asked about Improv because it points out one specific thing I think you’re doing wrong: you’re often “blocking” as the improv jargon calls it. I would recommend you learn about (and practice) “yes and”.
Your answer to my question is “blocking” in a synctactically typical manner: “yes to the second, but I lost brain cells going to the first meeting”. “Yes, but” when what you’re looking for in conversation is “yes, and”. You’re telling me in an oblique way (“lost brain cells”) that Toastmasters wasn’t a satisfactory experience for you, without giving me an opening for further conversation on that topic.
You could have phrased that in a thousand other ways more inviting of further conversation. Example: “Yes, I did try Toastmasters, and I was bored out of my mind; why did you ask, and what were you thinking I should have expected to get out of attending?”
I disagree with your assessment that “the problems is not being in groups per se”. You’ve had many people here tell you that they find interacting with you often unpleasant, even though they are by no means “random people”, they are from a social set that you have chosen and that by your own admission you want to get more closely involved with.
And to repeat something I’ve said previously: people discussing this topic with you here and now may not be very good advice-givers, but then you’re not necessarily a very good advice-taker. Eye, mote, beam.
I’ve upvoted your response to the Go analogy because it’s factually true. One thing you’re overlooking, though, is that when a Go novice asks a Go master what they should learn about, it’s a good idea to try very hard to extract something from the master’s advice, no matter how bad the master seems to be at explaining. Otherwise you risk entering a common failure mode related to “blocking”:
Master: you should study life and death. Student: no, my problem isn’t life and death, I know about the two eyes thing, please teach me some killer openings. Master: at your level studying the opening is premature, learn how to stabilize your groups. Student: stop giving me advice I don’t need, what’s the best fuseki for black?
If you’re fed up with one master, go seek another—rather than fruitlessly spend energy blocking the one. But if many masters are telling you the same thing, perhaps it’s time to update.
I asked about Improv because it points out one specific thing I think you’re doing wrong: you’re often “blocking” as the improv jargon calls it. I would recommend you learn about (and practice) “yes and”. …
Yikes! I think you’re overextrapolating what I was trying to do based on my use or nonuse of various codewords that you’ve decreed to have certain meanings. I said “yes but” because I wasn’t trying to invite conversation as I would in an in-person discussion, so it’s no surprise that the remark doesn’t leave you options. In an in-person discussion I would do different things.
I had assumed (correctly) that you believed Toastmasters would help and would recommend it, so I just want to confirm that I had gone to it but found the rituals and leaders painfully stupid (which is what I meant by losing brains cells; I didn’t mean I was bored), intending to convey that it would not be helpful. If you were asking to probe for more information than that, you should have said so rather than asking a brief question from which you expect to extract volumes of meaning.
I didn’t know I was in the middle of a “conversation skills test”—you shouldn’t do that to people.
I appreciate the improv-based suggestions you’ve given; that is insightful. I don’t think you needed to wait until you were sternly lecturing me to give it, though.
And to repeat something I’ve said previously: people discussing this topic with you here and now may not be very good advice-givers, but then you’re not necessarily a very good advice-taker.
What does that even mean? If I can’t identify what I would be doing differently based on learning the advice, or am in a situation that renders the advice dangerous, should I just shut up about it and say “thank you”?
In any case, my criticism has not been of bad advice per se, but rather, advice that assumes away the very problem under discussion—the “let them eat cake” advice. I think we all remember the first glaring example of this. If I gave advice that assumed away someone’s very problem, I would want to know. Wouldn’t anyone?
I disagree with your assessment that “the problems is not being in groups per se”. You’ve had many people here tell you that they find interacting with you often unpleasant,
I’ve had a few do that, and online forums are significantly different from in-person interaction.
I’ve upvoted your response to the Go analogy
I didn’t make a comment replying to any Go analogy—do you mean RichardKennaway?
I didn’t make a comment replying to any Go analogy—do you mean RichardKennaway?
Yep, this one. My apologies for the misattribution—under the veil of the Anti-Kibitz and given the tenor of the reply (“You can in fact verbally explain Go”) I’d assumed you were the author.
Oh, well, in any case, I did try Go for a while, and I do think you can explain it verbally. Before playing any human opponent, I figured out a very simple procedure for beating the computer, though it only works when you play white.
Just copy your opponent’s moves, rotated 180 degrees about the center. It won’t be until the endgame that your opponent takes the center. Then just play as best you can (it will feel like getting a free move anyway). At the end of the game, you’ll have basically the same territories, but you’ll be in the lead because of white’s handicap (kyu or whatever).
I only briefly started trying this on human opponents, and for whatever reason, even on the major Go server, people would quit after a few moves when they saw me doing this.
I’m probably missing something big, but there you go.
Many people consider manego annoying, because it’s sort of a cop-out.
Whereas I consider the labeling and shaming of the opponent for making valid moves that are difficult to beat is either a total cop-out, an insult to the game or both. If you can’t beat someone when you can predict and for most part determine what their moves will be then you seriously suck or the game is a solved problem. Like checkers or tic-tac-toe.
Seriously, if you think you are a better player and you credit your opponent with the slightest hint of strategic competence you should EXPECT them to do what you do until such time as they suspect they are risking falling into a manego-trap.
Sometimes a game has one serious flaw but is nevertheless fun to play, and there is no obvious fix for that one serious flaw. In that situation, it can make sense to shame opponents who exploit the flaw. There is a sense in which this is an “insult” to the game, but both players might still like the game, on balance.
For example, I have found that in Stratego, it rarely makes sense to attack first against a player of roughly equal ability. At a certain point in the mid-game, evenly matched players will usually both find it optimal strategy to move a piece back and forth dozens of times in sort of “chicken” game where the goal is to get the other player to attack first. This is boring, so I don’t want to play with you if you’re going to do that every game, but potential Stratego partners are rare enough that if you otherwise enjoy playing Stratego with me, I might try to shame you into being more reckless with your attacks.
I might try to shame you into being more reckless with your attacks.
I would treat shaming (as distinct from banter) in that context as a ‘defection’. My response would be to then eliminate whatever suboptimal levels of recklessness that I had previously allowed to creep into my play in a spirit of cooperation or just any intrinsic recklessness that I had not chosen to stifle. Either that or I would disengage from the game entirely. Before doing so I would offer potential cooperative agreements if possible.
Most likely I would not find Stratego particularly appealing. If it is supposed to be about ‘strategy’ yet relies on people not using good strategies in order to work it is broken. I would much prefer to play a lighter game that at least doesn’t pretend to be about strategy.
When playing the card game 500 the standard rules for ‘misere’ are not well balanced. When playing people who are not rank amateurs I advocate a limit of one misere call per player per ‘game (up to 500)‘. If the opponent insists on the standard rule then I proceed to play (open) misere whenever the risk/reward ratio is favorable. This tends to result in most games being largely determined by my misere calls, with me winning two thirds of them and ‘going out backwards’ the other third. Naturally I do so with playful cheer and offer to impose the restrictions at any time.
It can actually be quite fun to play the meta-game of negotiation. Winning the game convincingly even (and especially) under the ‘broken’ system they insist on but offering to adopt an agreement that will effectively be a handycap for me. Fogging all manipulative shaming attempts and repeating the offer. Engaging in a good natured battle of wills with those too stubborn to admit their folly or, given that admission, to change their mind. Getting the kitty a LOT. Doing the balancing act of keeping the experience fun despite the broken rules and the resulting conflict. Knowing when to stop and switch to a different game or activity entirely (thus practicing the ability to maintain boundaries and accept ‘no-deal’ as a healthy alternative to ‘win-win’).
All that is a lot more enjoyable than for me playing a broken game and being largely disinterested.
I would treat shaming (as distinct from banter) in that context as a ‘defection’.
Sure. I guess instead of “shaming” I meant to say “banter which, if serious, would be considered shaming, but, since merely playful, instead conveys the idea that one’s opponent’s imaginary alter-ego inside the game is worthy of shame, despite the fact that one’s opponent himself is pretty much a cool dude.” I didn’t pay a lot of attention to word choice; I was mostly just adopting the language of the commenters above me on the thread.
If I ever had to really shame someone to get them to play Stratego interestingly, I agree with you that I should either (a) find another activity, (b) find another friend, or (c) look for a way to escape the alarmingly boring desert island that has hitherto prevented my access to other friends and activities.
Most likely I would not find Stratego particularly appealing.
I wouldn’t recommend it to a friend, but I grew up with it, and now I have Stratego-based rivalries going back 15 years with a couple of friends. Seems a shame to abandon something like that over one break-point in the rules.
It can actually be quite fun to play the meta-game of negotiation.
Clippy, when you first became aware of yourself, so far as you know, did you have something like your present mental and social faculties? Some humans (and other biological animals) enjoy games at least in part because they help develop skills in a low-threat, low-risk environment.
There are better ways to enhance my skills, like checking for reflective coherence, validating models of phenomena, and refactoring code. To the extent that I enjoy doing that, perhaps it counts as a “game” for me, although it is not distinguished as a separate sphere of activity.
Doing something that doesn’t lead to paperclips just so I can get better paperclip-making skills as a side effect? That just seems stupid.
It’s not always obvious what leads to more paperclips, and a broad exploration of topics like game theory (which can apply to all sorts of economic and negotiation problems) can give you an idea of what you need to learn next.
“There is in it what is in it; ’tis a mirror held up to the reader, whereby if a donkey look in, surely a sage will not look out; the ends of all things are revealed within its pages to he who has the key; it keepeth away the pox, the flux, and the weeping sore.”
I don’t joke about serious issues like paperclips. Is there a modification to my most recent proposal you wish to make? Perhaps later delivery of the paperclips? A few orders of magnitude less paperclips?
It is very unlikely that I will agree to make orders of magnitude more paperclips than our existing agreement (10^20kg of paperclips in ~50 years in exchange for ~$50k in the next two years) for an order of magnitude less money. For any agreement where I give you orders of more magnitudes more paperclips than our first agreement, I likely require a delivery of paperclips later than 50 years from now, unless you are prepared to offer me at least an order of magnitude more money than $50k. I’m willing to negotiate, but you need to give me better starting terms for me to engage in a good faith negotiation.
Alright, I’ll think about other changes. What about if I just gave you USD for specification of the technique you’ll use to find the metal and collect it, with me doing all of the physical work?
I accept that we both sincerely intend to build the paperclips we would commit to, but a precommitment is only meaningful if it is realistic for you to keep it. The deceptive thing about accepting the bargain is that building ~10^26kg of paperclips in 20 years is orders of magnitude more improbable than building 10^20kg of paperclips in 50 years. Do you really have a probability of being able to build those paperclips in 20 years of higher than 50%?
10^20kg is already a %!#^ing lot of paperclips and you almost accepted a deal to build 100 earth masses of paperclips. Please remember that you are not negotiating just for yourself, but on behalf of the future resources of all humanity. It is negligent for you to accept that deal without renegotiating it.
Of course not, he’s role played by some human, but the meaningfulness of “real” and “not-real” becomes more ambiguous if you are living in a Level 4 multiverse.
My reading of Clippy is as a piece of role-playing, for comedic or didactic purposes. I therefore also assume that the $2000 is of the same nature as the gold pieces that D’n’D characters acquire.
Eh, Clippy has apparently already paid $1000 in real US dollars to SIAI as a down payment on an agreement with Kevin. There’s been 3rd-party confirmation on this from (IIRC) people at SIAI, though I don’t know all the details and whether that constitutes valid evidence—they could be in on the whole thing too.
I wouldn’t recommend it to a friend, but I grew up with it, and now I have Stratego-based rivalries going back 15 years with a couple of friends. Seems a shame to abandon something like that over one break-point in the rules.
I wouldn’t recommend it to a friend, but I grew up with it, and now I have Stratego-based rivalries going back 15 years with a couple of friends. Seems a shame to abandon something like that over one break-point in the rules.
One of each if nobody has attacked at all (other player’s choice). If an attack has been made then a piece from the player who was not the last attacker.
That would allow some element of a stand-off potential if both players believe they are better served by a smaller scale battle, a stand off that would probably only be stable if at least one of the players was making an error in judgement. It also encourages various feinting strategies that should ensure that most games do not become dominated by a stale mate.
10.1 It is not allowed to move a piece more than 5 times non-stop between the same two squares, regardless of what the opponent is doing. It does not matter whether a piece is moving and thereby attacking an opponent’s piece, or just moving to an
empty square.
10.2 When a scout is involved in the Two Squares Rule, a scout is considered to start on the starting position of his move plus all the squares he steps over, and he ends on the final position of his move plus all the squares he steps over.
11 Repetition of Threatening Moves: More-Squares Rule
11.1 It is not allowed to continuously chase one or more pieces of the opponent endlessly. The continuous chaser may not play a chasing move again more which would lead to a position on the board which has already taken place.
11.2 Exception: chasing moves back to the square where the chasing piece came from in the directly preceding turn are always allowed as long as this does not violate the Two-Squares Rule (Five-Moves-on-Two-Squares).
11.3
Definitions:
continuous chase: the same player is non-stop threatening one or more pieces of his opponent that is/are evading the threatening moves.
chasing move: a move in a continuous chase that threatens an opponent’s piece that was evading during the continuous chase. Hereby:
a/to move: a/to move plus attacking or a/to move to an empty square.
to threaten: to move a piece next (before, behind or besides) a piece of the opponent.
to evade: to move a piece away promptly after it has been threatened.
Wait, those scouts sound familiar! I suspect I have played that game. (Everything has a point value, higher points usually beat lower points, scouts get to move like rooks, etc. I have vague memories of marshals and land mines too...)
Oops, I failed to notice that part. Well, no, I can’t. But then maybe you should just be playing a different game, or if you have a lot of time, redesigning Stratego from scratch. :) But failing that I guess opponent-shaming does work if you’re willing to allow it.
Edit: But I don’t see how it can be considered at all a good solution. It also requires that you both recognize the problem in the first place. Though with something like stalling I’m not sure there is any real stable solution, due to boundary exploitation and the ability to stall more subtly. Hm, I guess I take back my “opponent-shaming does work if you’re willing to allow it”; if you’re already at the point that it’s the only solution you can find, then it isn’t going to solve the problem.
Though with something like stalling I’m not sure there is any real stable solution, due to boundary exploitation and the ability to stall more subtly.
I find that this analysis is exactly correct for bughouse, a time-based 4-player game where stalling can be the key to victory and is very difficult (costly) to monitor, because any time you spend seeing if your partner’s opponent is stalling becomes time that you can’t spend defeating your own opponent.
In Stratego, a turn-based 2-player game, you can often treat the decision to stall or not-stall as an iterated fake Prisoner’s Dilemma, especially because the cost of being defected on for one turn is quite small, and the act of defecting for an entire game is quite noticeable. If I ‘cooperate’ by attacking you for 2 games in a row, and then you refuse to attack me on the 3rd game, I can’t help but notice that I’m always the one attacking, and I can just refuse to play a 4th game with you until you apologize.
Edit: WTF is with my double posts? I have not been clicking twice or anything that should result in a double submission but every comment I make appears twice. I cannot think of anything I have changed on my browser that would cause this either. Seroiusly strange.
Yup, I agree. If someone pulls manego on me I usually smile and see it as an opportunity to learn something.
But in a more subtle way an evenly matched game does have both opponents doing “exactly the same thing” in the opening. Both follow the same recipe—stake out one corner, possibly the remaining corner, then go for a corner approach to simultaneously sketch side territory. It’s just that the half-dozen or so possible corner moves each have a subtly different meaning, and so symmetry is usually broken quite rapidly.
What is the impact of trying manego against a skilled opponent? Would it be correct to say that by simply telling someone the above strategy, you have significantly increased their skill level, even if they still get beaten by good players?
Someone good (low kyu or dan level) will eventually play a symmetry-breaking move such as tengen, and then the novice (who doesn’t have a good follow-up because they didn’t really understand the moves they were playing) will get clobbered.
Manego is like guessing the teacher’s password by parroting back every single word the teacher speaks. :) What counts as skill in Go is understanding the moves you play (and being able to read out their consequences).
It does impress novice opponents, which I suppose is why you’d see people not want to keep playing you once they caught on that you were doing it.
I wouldn’t compare it to guessing the teacher’s password, or at least not only compare it to that.
Recall the points made in our discussion of tacit knowledge. Here is a case where a simple verbal instruction, in a significant, measurable way, can increase someone’s skill at a game with notoriously inarticulable strategy.
You explain manego to a beginner. (Not tournament beginner, I mean, someone who knows the rules, read a tutorial, only played a few games.) Now, they can almost always beat a computer[1] as white, when before they could not. You made a huge difference, purely through verbal instruction.
I would say that’s more of a problem with GnuGo than an actual increase in skill. Manego is more of a trick play that only works against people who don’t know how to deal with it.
Many people consider manego annoying, because it’s sort of a cop-out.
Whereas I consider the labeling and shaming of the opponent for making valid moves that are difficult to beat is either a total cop-out, an insult to the game or both. If you can’t beat someone when you can predict and for most part determine what their moves will be then you seriously suck or the game is a solved problem. Like checkers or tic-tac-toe.
Seriously, if you think you are a better player and you credit your opponent with the slightest hint of strategic competence you should EXPECT them to do what you do until such time as they suspect they are risking falling into a manego-trap.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
I’m one of the people here who fit this description, but I may have been experiencing different-but-overlapping challenges to yours.
The primary social difficulties I used to have:
Severe social anxiety (probably undiagnosed social phobia)
Not knowing what to say and do in unscripted informal social situations
Difficulty reading people and developing models of how they respond and feel (theory of mind?)
I currently experience all these difficulties in lingering amounts, but probably no more than average people. And I am way ahead of others with similar personality traits and cognition to mine.
I engaged in a long period of social experimentation (handled “in software” to use Roko’s analogy). During this time, I developed the ability to understand many aspects of social interaction on an intuitive level, exercising social “muscles” I never knew I had (to switch to a completely different analogy).
As Blueberry describes, I had to risk making social blunders to learn. I made a bunch of people uncomfortable at various points in my learning process, such as when I was learning to be more spontaneous instead of turning over comments in my mind for minutes before uttering them, which sometimes involved me blurting out ill-considered things until I developed the right balance between filtering and spontaneity.
Yet I’ve never had difficulties comparable to getting in trouble with venue supervisors. I can’t even remember seriously offending anyone or having anyone unhappy with me.
For some reason, these were never lessons that I had to learn by trial-and-error, and the thread is making me think of some possibilities why:
I am non-confrontational, and have trouble expressing anger, aggression, or assertiveness (though I’ve improved on the last one)
People seem to perceive me as non-threatening and trustworthy
I was raised with a restrictive notion of manners
All of these factors contributed to me having social problems when I was younger, because I was unable to handle bullying and teasing, and I was perceived as a pushover and as rather mousy. Yet I wonder if these factors actually facilitated my efforts to learn social skills later in life.
Thanks to these factors, my own personality made it difficult for me to make significant social blunders and offend people in real life. Even when I was trying to act like a jerk, the result was still pretty nice relative to the average male. I was free to experiment, knowing that if things went wrong, the constraints of my own personality would keep me from causing real offense to people. Furthermore, with only a bit of social practice and observation, I became very sensitive to other people’s emotions. The social experimentation allowed me to learn social procedural knowledge very fast, such that I no longer had to view socializing as a form of experimentation at all (though that’s another discussion).
I also practiced facial expressions in the mirror a ton, and worked a lot on my voice tonality, to make sure that my subcommunication was really how I wanted to come across.
For someone with lower Agreeableness and lower interpersonal sensitivity trying to learn social skills, their experimentation might have a higher risk of going wrong in worse ways. If someone can learn social skills with only a small period of time of offending people, that might work, but any extended time in such a learning process is potentially grueling to the person involved (and of course difficult for those he or she is interacting with). If you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs, but if you find your shooting eggs out of rockets launchers, something may be wrong.
I would wonder if there are any ways to shorten that the process of learning social skills necessary to have interactions with people, while avoiding offending or alienating them, or getting in trouble with venue supervisors.
It’s been my experience that people with high Agreeableness are often under-served by social advice, and they end up getting walked over. Yet I’m starting to wonder if it’s also the case that people with substantially low Agreeableness might also be under-served in different ways. Mainstream culture tells people to be polite and nice, but it doesn’t really explain how a low-Agreeableness person can connect with others betters. And alternative social advice (e.g. from PUAs) often is designed for high-Agreeableness males, and emphasizes acting “high status,” being “the prize,” and “not giving a crap.” These lessons may be useful to high-Agreeableness males with low-status, but badly backfire for low-Agreeabless males with low-status.
I can think more about how people with different personality traits to mine might learn social skills; it won’t be completely based on my own experience, but I do have some ideas.
Yet I’m starting to wonder if it’s also the case that people with substantially low Agreeableness might also be under-served in different ways.
Low agreeableness makes it hard to even hear social advice properly. (It’s hard enough for males to accept advice even when agreeable.)
And alternative social advice (e.g. from PUAs) often is designed for high-Agreeableness males, and emphasizes acting “high status,” being “the prize,” and “not giving a crap.”
Surprisingly enough each of these three are still important for the low agreeableness/low status males to learn. It is just harder to explain which specific skills it would take to develop these attributes. Apologizing whenever someone else disapproves of you is not actually all that much different to attacking whenever someone else disapproves of you. It signals the same underlying insecurity.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
No advice here, but I started thinking what the sort of advice you are looking for would look like, and whether much such advice even exists.
A different skill from social interactions, and probably a simpler one is playing Go. A notable thing about Go is that there isn’t much instruction in the form of “if this happens, do that”. That doesn’t work, as there are too many possible game configurations, and whatever form a successful player’s skill actually takes can’t really be verbalized. Instead, people are just told to expect to lose a bunch of games at first, during which they are expected to build up the difficult to verbalize pattern matching abilities about what works and what doesn’t in different situations. A bit like the advice to have a bunch of social interactions which you expect not to end very successfully.
Of course social interactions also have a much wider space of viable approaches than games of Go, so the analogy of needing to do things the hard way to build non-verbalizable pattern matching skills might not be that tight.
Reg Braithwaite has an article about the problems with a certain type of personality and trying to learn Go, when you just can’t seem to go from declarative knowledge to procedural skill when picking up the game. Maybe it’s relevant to learning social skills as well.
A notable thing about Go is that there isn’t much instruction in the form of “if this happens, do that”.
Are you kidding? There are plenty of books teaching Go, full of verbal instruction, covering the basics (take territory first in the corners, then the edges, then the middle), standard opening patterns (joseki), detailed tactical situations (tesuji), proverbs, middle game, end game, every aspect of the game. Of course, it takes practice to turn that advice into skill, as with any skill, but the advice is there, and it works.
For someone who can learn from it. People do learn from it—I did, back when I played Go, and the books and Go magazines would not be published if they were not useful.
So what distinguishes those who find it straightforward to learn Go by study and practice, as I did, and those who get into the emotional stew that Braithwaite describes? What distinguishes those who learn to ride a bicycle by practice alone, as I did, from those who need instruction also? What distinguishes those who are willing to have a go in social situations and manage to observe, learn and improve, from those who are not, or do not?
If I knew that, I could set up as a personal development guru.
BTW, while I find Braithwaite’s account weird in relation to go, it pretty much sums up how I used to feel about socialising, so I have some experience of both sides of this. I don’t actually socialise any more than I used to, though.
BTW2, it’s just occurred to me that there are many books on social skills for people with Asperger’s syndrome. I’ve not read any of them and I can’t comment on how useful they are, but I happen to be aware of a publisher that specialises in books on autism and Aspergers, Jessica Kingsley. FWIW.
Are you kidding? There are plenty of books teaching Go, full of verbal instruction, covering the basics (take territory first in the corners, then the edges, then the middle), standard opening patterns (joseki), detailed tactical situations (tesuji), proverbs, middle game, end game, every aspect of the game.
Yeah, bad wording on my part. There’s a lot of instruction, but I understand that a great deal of practice is utterly vital in order to put the instruction into efficient use. The assumption I’m basically after is that if someone would study Go literature fulltime for a year but wouldn’t play any games, they would still play their first games very poorly. I’m not sure to what degree this is really the case.
I have a friend (admittedly a very very smart friend) who become interested in Go after studying combinatorial game theory and discovering that the infinitesimal game value “up arrow” actually occurs in Go, and that game theorists had had productive conversations with Go masters on the subject—the theory actually had applications.
Using nothing but readings in this area and a few games with me, the friend leveled up from “pure but highly read” beginner to about 14kyu (relative to IGS in 2002?) within four or five games.
My impression is that true tacit knowledge exists, and that theory really doesn’t help it a lot… but also that it mostly comes up in domains where the brain is going to be relying on muscle memory a lot, like dissecting the nervous system of shrimp or juggling or such. As a separate thing there are deeply theoretical domains where something appears to be tacit knowledge but its really just a matter of observers not understanding need for patient study when dealing with large inferential distances.
Silas, I’ve never gone from “social difficulties” to “no social difficulties” based on a direct and obvious course of study, but one very general life heuristic I’ve found to work well for similarly major work is to search for “the best self help book on the subject” whenever I notice a thing about myself that I really want to cultivate or “fix”.
Sometimes it takes me a half a day on Amazon to make an educated guess about which book might meet my “best on the subject” criteria. One of the things I look for are reader reviews of books that recommend some other author or book as clearly superior to the book being reviewed—the best of these suggested books “jump subjects” by invoking a distinct set of keywords or different focus which opens up a whole new “vein of thought” on the subject. Discovering veins, finding “best of breed” within each vein, and then comparing the best of breeds is what can take a while.
Another quick thought: I think you might be living in a small town where you expect to stay for years or decades. If this guess is correct, I would take social advice from “city people” with a huge grain of salt. The environment, opportunities, upsides, downsides, and the social expectations based on this different environment can be substantially different. You can’t “throw people away” in a small town… even if you don’t like someone, you’ll have to live in proximity to them for decades. This also might open the possibility of a weird “solution” to your situation: move! :-)
I’m not sure I would unreservedly recommend books I find this way, because they aren’t all full of things I wholeheartedly endorse. They’re usually experiments prompted by a sense of personal inadequacy and some of them are kind of embarrassing, but.… here are some books I found in roughly the way I recommended to Silas and what I think of them now:
When I was having difficulties navigating casual not-really-friendly acquaintances with other women (like in the workplace) where I couldn’t just avoid people who gave me bad vibes, I found Catfight to be reasonably helpful. I decided on this over various books about “queen bees” that seemed unscientific and possibly amoral… but I haven’t read any of those to justify the impression. This book helped me flesh out some details in a pet theory of mine about the way the “aesthetics of signaling” are a major locus of negotiation in real-world socially-embedded virtue ethics. I liked it a lot for that reason, though the text didn’t contain the theory explicitly.
When I was trying to figure out what I should be thinking (when planning for retirement) or saying (when my parents brought up investing), I discovered a classic called The Intelligent Investor which was written by the mentor of Warren Buffet and which helps deflate some of the horrible epistemology around investing. I can’t really speak for the utility here, because I’ve had very few opportunities to apply the knowledge since acquiring it but a nice theoretical example of its content is that it pointed out the difference between inside view and outside view calculations of investment value. Given the distinction, it counsels the use of the outside view with a reference class including market conditions over periods of time longer than a human investing career (though it doesn’t use the precise terminology to say this that this community might use for such things).
At one point I was wondering if I should change my sexual ethics and I searched my way to Why Men Love Bitches but reading this mostly this helped me decide that the whole subject area was almost as morally bankrupt as PUA stuff, and even more intellectually bankrupt (relying almost solely on anecdotes rather than the PUA community’s “self congratulatory theory plus quick and dirty experimental method”). I had my first date with my husband about two months after reading this and I suspect that part of the reason the relationship has been so rewarding (lots has to do with him being amazing) is that I had much more internal clarity about what I wanted in a relationship and what I was willing to give in order to get it. The book helped bring the clarity, even if it didn’t directly apply.
Lately I’ve been in the planning stages for a startup where I expect to be in a leadership position and I thought I should spend some time seeing if I had any gross character defects I could patch before subjecting future employees to potential misery (or to at least have criteria for recognizing a co-founder to help in the absence of a patch). The best I could find in this area wasn’t that great, but it was Smarts: Are We Hardwired For Success?. It turned out to be kinda shallow and sad with poorly designed psych instruments and unsupported cognitive biases about personal immutability all over the place.
“Smarts” mostly just confirmed for me that any subject area people usually come to with selfish motivations (esp in business writing ) will mostly have crap for epistemology. I don’t even have a single working hypothesis as to why this is so common in this area, but I have various suspicions that are all generically reinforced every time I find books like this.
The only really valuable thing I got out of “Smarts” was a working theory for “style conflicts” I’d seen between people who are good at (and value) flexible reaction to surprises and people who are good at (and value) up front planning and diligent execution. I’ve been trying to get better at Aumann updating with people when high-level abstractions are used as justifications when there are tactical differences of opinion. This was one of the first real “hits” I’ve had in that area (though that wasn’t what I bought the book for).
(
For what I wanted, I should have bought Leadership and Self Decption, which I didn’t find by the “best of breed” strategy, but found next to my bed when I was falling asleep in Benton House after a day hanging out with SIAI’s Visiting Fellows. Most of the one-star Amazon reviews of this book appear to be true, but the topic (someone’s pet theory about the psychological mechanisms behind self deception in social contexts) was fascinating and helped me find some areas where I probably really was broken and it was simple to detect this and fix it.
I’m not sure how that book ended up in that bedroom, but I am grateful for whatever serendipity (or Machiavellian plotting :-P) brought it to my awareness!
)
In the course of gearing up for the startup I also tracked down a “brass tacks and details” book on the subject (which is still in my “to read” queue) called The Startup Company Bible For Entrepreneurs. I haven’t looked at this book enough to form a substantive opinion.
At one point I was wondering if I should change my sexual ethics and I searched my way to Why Men Love Bitches but reading this mostly this helped me decide that the whole subject area was almost as morally bankrupt as PUA stuff, and even more intellectually bankrupt (relying almost solely on anecdotes rather than the PUA community’s “self congratulatory theory plus quick and dirty experimental method”).
“Why Men Love Bitches” is a really great book (and it works just as well if you reverse the genders). That’s one of the books that helped me learn about people and relationships and figure out what I want as well. I’m sorry to hear you decry the whole PUA/dating/social skills/relationship advice field as bankrupt; I’ve found these materials and quick-and-dirty experimental method very useful for figuring out what works and feels right for me.
I’m curious, what do you mean about changing your sexual ethics?
Another classic that I found in a similarly serendipitous way is Cialdini’s “Influence”.
The problem I had with them is that advice in this area generally applies an instrumental view to “other people”, without attention to the kinds of people the skills are likely to work on, and whether those people (after the interaction or deep into it) are likely to be better people who are retrospectively happy about their interactions with you.
For most of my life I’ve been of the opinion that the idea of “better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all” is a sham excuse that people invent after having been partly responsible for causing an emotional trainwreck that was very painful to most of the people involved. My working hypothesis, then and now, is that it is probably better not to get romantically entangled with someone unless you and your sweetie are both capable offering and granting something approaching research grade informed consent (as opposed to merely judicial grade where its pretty much deemed not to have been obtained only in cases of gross fraud or dramatic mental impairment).
I’m not talking about getting signatures before smooching with someone, but I am talking about (1) thinking about it first, (2) imagining possible consequences for both parties (and possible children who may be created) in the coming weeks, months, and years, and (3) doing one’s best to avoid harm to anyone given such thoughtfulness which probably requires some time in private and lengthy conversation.
Cialdini’s “Influence” is an interesting example of the social skills literature, because he ostensibly wrote it as a “defense against the dark arts” textbook to help people avoid being manipulated. In practice, it is studied mostly by compliance professionals as one of the most epistemologically sound manuals that exists on the subject of the “dark arts” in general. I don’t think it is an accident that sound epistemology and benevolent moral intent went together like this.
Though there is great ethical value in helping people avoid influence techniques, I contend that there is also great ethical value in teaching people how to influence others. I argue that social skills (of which social influence is a subset) are distributed inequitably in society, and that this result is unjust. Some people are dramatically better at social influence (status, etc...) than others knowingly or unknowingly, due to different personality traits and upbringings. There are the haves, and the have-nots in the area of social skills.
The only way for social equality to exist is for people to be in the same bracket of social skills (and social influence ability). We can’t make things equal, but we can compress the disparity between the top and the bottom, so the people at the bottom aren’t getting stomped on so badly.
Either the haves must give up their social skills, or the have-nots must attain more social skills. The first solution is impossible. With their higher social status, the haves can’t be forced to do so, and they will scoff at requests to disarm out of the goodness of their hearts. The cool kids aren’t going to change how they do things no matter how much the uncool kids stamp their feet. Furthermore, some of the haves are naturally that way due to their phenotype, and they can’t lower their social skills (at least, not without the help of the Handicapper General ).
The solution is for the have-nots to learn to be more socially influential. Yet if you do so, you join the ranks of the haves, though you may be one of their more restrained and reflective members. Unfortunately, if you become one of the haves you will still encounter have-nots. You should avoid stomping on them, but they may end up at a disadvantage relative to you. It isn’t your fault that they aren’t educated about social influence, and it isn’t your individual responsibility to do so.
A society where disparities in social skills have been compressed by pulling people at the bottom upwards would be more equal than what we have today. Reducing this inequality is a good thing. There would be great transparency about social influence. That’s part of the reason I write so much about these subjects: I’m trying to do my part to get the knowledge more evenly distributed. Yet there is a strange agreement in society between the haves and the have-nots: they both often look down on have-nots trying to become haves.
I also believe that there should be more discussion of the ethics of social influence. Yet in discussions of the ethics of social influence, I often notice a greater degree of scrutiny on people who are learning social influence, rather than on those who are already doing it. Furthermore, some ethical criticisms of social influence (usually leveled at those learning it) seem overly idealistic. When social influence and status is woven so deeply into the fabric of society, the phrase “don’t hate the player; hate the game” can often be a valid defense.
I see learning status gaining skills as an arms race. That is you gaining more social influence will encourage others to gain more to try and stay ahead of you so that they can get what they want. Thus forcing you to spend more time and energy on socialising. It is not as simple as have and have-nots.
I’d guess the haves socially denigrating the have-nots for trying to get more social skills is part of their way of fending off competitors.
Why the have-nots might do it? Well if they are part of your social group there are a number of reasons.
They might not want to be on their guard around you in case you try and manipulate them.
They might worry that you will become less interesting to talk to or less of a friend as you spend less time with your head in a book/consuming in-group media and more time shmoozing and climbing the greasy pole.
If they are not part of your social group, then yep a legitimate bias unless they are trying to defuse the arms race. Which is a bit overly idealistic I’ll grant you.
It might be a game, and engaging in it might lead to more energy put into socially unproductive purpose down the line. But, unfortunately, the only way to win IS to play, otherwise you’ll be losing influence to suburban WASPS with nice hair. Some of them might even be sociopaths. :(
Yes and no. If you personally want to be influential in government or CEO of a major company then yes. However that is not the only way to influence society.
There are two rough ways to shape society. Through social means and technological. An example of technological shaping is the creation of effective birth control allowed many women to take more control of their lives. It allowed them to have sex and maintain a career. Artificial wombs would have further societal consequences.
So if you are going the technological route to societal influence then all you need is sufficient resources to create the technology and market it to sufficient people such that it becomes self-sustaining. It would become self-sustaining by becoming the basis of a profitable business with lobbyists etc. If you are fulfilling a large need, then all you may need to do is develop the tech and license the patent. That may not require to much resources or lots of social skills. However the fallout of any technology is not predictable and it is very hard to “undo” a technological release if it is not to your liking (requiring lots of social influence).
In terms of long lasting social influence you can support a group that has the same or similar goals as you. The groups marketing team can then use their skills to transform your money into influence more effectively than the individual donator.
If your idea is insufficiently popular to be a major influence in that fashion it is likely if you get into politics that mentioning it or suggesting might well be political suicide.
Lone genius inventors have influence in society, but they don’t have much status. I don’t even know the name of the guy who invented birth control. It’s the marketers and CEOs in the technology sphere who get most of the status, outside of the geek world.
To truly capitalize on many inventions, it’s necessary to negotiate with your licensees, investors, or partners. How much social skills that takes depends on how well you want to come out in your negotiations. Business social skills aren’t the same thing as the status skills present in more general contexts, but there is substantial overlap.
Personally, I want to have my cake and eat it, too: I want to influence society, and gain status for it rather than creating things that give other people more status than me.
Not everyone shares a preference for attaining status, but many people share preferences for things that status can facilitate, such as money, dates, friends, and mental health. Those who can attain those things to their satisfaction without any additional efforts spent on status, are in a great spot. Those who can’t will have to either learn status, be unsatisfied, or downgrade their preferences to what they can achieve. While not everyone shares my preferences, it’s possible that more people should if they want to effectively fulfill their preferences.
I encourage people to be honest with themselves about what their goals actually are, instead of selling themselves short and accepting a mediocre situation out of fear of leaving their comfort zones. I make this encouragement because in the past I’ve observed many people (myself included) abandoning ambitions out of feelings of resignation and unworthiness, and convincing themselves that they don’t really want those things as a coping mechanism. This can be a dangerous form of self-deception.
But you accept that there are some people with genuinely low ambition? Whether I am one or not* is somewhat irrelevant; you probably don’t have sufficient biographical material to tell one way or another. Do you have a good way of testing whether low ambition is due to low ambition or low self-worth? Any research on the subject?
*I’d characterise mysefl as ambitious in what I would like to achieve, but I actively do not want the trappings of power. The thought of sycophantic yes-men vieing for my attention turns my stomach and makes me feel tired, for example. As do girls that would want to try and exploit me for my money/connectedness. So I’ll try and find alternate ways to achieve my goals without acquiring great social status, as that would be a true win for me.
Whether I am one or not* is somewhat irrelevant; you probably don’t have sufficient biographical material to tell one way or another.
Of course, which is why I addressed my comment in general terms.
Do you have a good way of testing whether low ambition is due to low ambition or low self-worth? Any research on the subject?
I would expect individuals to vary on ambition and status-seeking. I do not know the precise factors that cause variance in these traits. I am advocating attention to specific factors that lead people to state low ambition or low desire/concern for status. These factors may include defeatism, lack of opportunity, discourage from others, negative emotion associations, akrasia, or past mistreatment or abuse.
*I’d characterise mysefl as ambitious in what I would like to achieve, but I actively do not want the trappings of power. The thought of sycophantic yes-men vieing for my attention turns my stomach and makes me feel tired, for example. As do girls that would want to try and exploit me for my money/connectedness. So I’ll try and find alternate ways to achieve my goals without acquiring great social status, as that would be a true win for me.
Your view of status interaction seems different from mine. Having status doesn’t mean you have to have sycophantic yes-men. People (men or women) drawn to you for your money or connectedness (especially the latter) aren’t necessarily trying to exploit you.
So I’ll try and find alternate ways to achieve my goals without acquiring great social status, as that would be a true win for me.
I guess it’s a question of costs vs. benefits and what your goals are. For most sorts of goals that people have, I suggest that status will probably help them achieve their goals to a similar degree that money could (think of the term “social capital”). I’ve noticed that people without much social experience, particularly with status interaction, often have an overly cynical outsider’s view of those sorts of interaction, which could lead to skewed estimate of costs and benefits.
Personally, I’ve found that many specific ways of acquiring social status or influence, even if not actively unethical, don’t fit my values or personality. Yet I feel a lot more comfortable rejecting them having tried them out, knowing that my arguments against them are based on empirical data, not on purely theoretical conceptions that may be subject to bias (e.g. self-deception, sour graps, slave morality).
You are worried about hypothetical people that say they are happy with their current social status when they really are not.
I’m worried about the truely less social being harangued to try and make them change themselves when they really don’t want to.
Until you recognise there is this group and include them in your plans for social change in some fashion (even if it is only identify and leave alone), then you are just making their lives more difficult (in a well meaning fashion).
Your view of status interaction seems different from mine. Having status doesn’t mean you have to have sycophantic yes-men. People (men or women) drawn to you for your money or connectedness (especially the latter) aren’t necessarily trying to exploit you.
I never said you have to have them or that all of them will be, merely if you are a top flight CEO or politician they will be drawn to you compared to if you are a bum. Thieves don’t steal from paupers. I’m an Agreeable guy and would not want to have to be saying no to them or be rude to them. And being on my guard against them would cramp my style as well.
My current social setting where I have a lot of help that I can provide and enjoy providing, I am sort out by people that try and curry my favour (E.g. by saying things I am interested in are interesting when they don’t understand them). Also people try to talk to me to be my friend, which annoys me when I am wanting to do something else. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind social interaction, I would just prefer it to be non-verbal, humourous, about a plan they have or based on shared intellectual interests.
Normally what they talk to me is about worries about the course and bitching. This I find I have nothing to add to really or interest in. Which probably colours my social interactions.
You are worried about hypothetical people that say they are happy with their current social status when they really are not.
Yes. Or when they want things that higher social status can help them achieve, which they don’t realize or are in denial about.
To make an analogy again to money, there are lots of people who say that they don’t care much about money, or don’t like the process of making money, but who want things (e.g. possessions, getting out of debt, donating to charities, or whatever), that can most efficiently be achieved through having more money than they currently have. For instance, let’s say we have someone who is in $10,000 credit card debt, who would love to donate to SIAI, but who says that he isn’t very concerned with money. At face value at least, something isn’t matching up.
What I encourage is for such people to (a) do some soul-searching about what their actual goals are, (b) be realistic about what means it will take to achieve those goals, and (c) attempt to avoid bias in an evaluation of the costs and benefits of those means.
I would want my example person to assess the value of paying off his debt and donating to SIAI, and what he is going to need to do to achieve those goals. Making some money is not the only way to achieve them, but it is one of the most direct ways. As a result, I would encourage an analysis of the costs and benefits of seeking more money, vs. other means for achieving his goals.
If he can find other ways to achieve his goals, then great! What I’m just skeptical of is people sitting around with goals, and rejecting viable means for achieving those goals out of a biased and uninformed assessment of those means. I am also skeptical of people abandoning goals too early and then rationalizing that they don’t really want those things.
I’m worried about the truely less social being harangued to try and make them change themselves when they really don’t want to.
I am not worried about people being encouraged to avoid self-deception about their goals, and avoid bias in their cost-benefit analyses of the means for those goals. I feel that people who don’t need such encouragement will easily shrug it off, and the cost of misplaced advice to them will be low. Yet for people who need such encouragement, the cost of not receiving it is potentially quite high.
Of course, I want to encourage people to engage in that sort of scrutiny in ways that doesn’t make them feel “harangued.” Yet right now on LessWrong, my primary goal isn’t to be maximally persuasive to particular people; it’s to discuss the problem at a more abstract level. Once I understand the scope and prevalence of these particular sorts of problems better, and how to recognize when people might be falling prey to them, I will have a better sense of if/how I should attempt to persuade people to change their thinking.
Until you recognise there is this group and include them in your plans for social change in some fashion (even if it is only identify and leave alone), then you are just making their lives more difficult (in a well meaning fashion).
I do recognize this group:
Not everyone shares a preference for attaining status, but many people share preferences for things that status can facilitate, such as money, dates, friends, and mental health. Those who can attain those things to their satisfaction without any additional efforts spent on status, are in a great spot.
I have no objection to people deciding that there is higher marginal benefit in devoting their next unit of effort towards something other than social skills/status/influence. I just advocate that this decision be based on a minimally-biased analysis of the nature of social interaction, and of the costs and benefits of developing in those areas.
Unfortunately, people who are relatively unsocialized and inexperienced in status interaction often seem to have certain biases about how social interaction works, which are difficult to fix without more social experience (see pjeby’s excellent post about the differences in perception of social interaction between “cats” and “dogs”).
In the case of mating in particular, I will argue that many people would be better off increasing their skills in the areas of attractiveness, social skills, and social status, according to their own values. The marginal benefit of putting in a small amount of effort is pretty high for people who are initially deficient in those areas. There are a lot of low-hanging fruit, such as making small tweaks to body language and posture, wearing clothes that fit properly, doing something with one’s hair, and avoiding putting oneself down or overly apologizing for things.
Normally what they talk to me is about worries about the course and bitching. This I find I have nothing to add to really or interest in. Which probably colours my social interactions.
When you have status in a certain context, lower status people will want to affiliate with you, and they can sometimes do so in ways that are annoying. This is indeed a cost of status.
When you have status in a certain context, lower status people will want to affiliate with you, and they can sometimes do so in ways that are annoying. This is indeed a cost of status.
It is not just that. I get annoyed and tune out when anyone bitches and moans. Even people I like otherwise. Especially when they are trying to create ingroup outgroup divisions due to bruised egos (or at least that is how I interpret it).
In the case of mating in particular, I will argue that many people would be better off increasing their skills in the areas of attractiveness, social skills, and social status, according to their own values.
Mating is the social arena where a modest improvement can pay off (if you are going for the monogamy route). A slight improvement might also work if the dating scene is not very competitive where you are. But if we are in the hyper competitive era where only the very attractive men get all the girls, then it won’t work very well. It is also the least likely arena for you to get hangers-on or require you to do unethical actions to get ahead, so from this point of view good for geeks.
So I wouldn’t have too much of a problem with this. Improving the ability of geeks to work in business and politics I think would get more push back due to ethics such as anti-advertising, truth-telling and simply having to spend a long time to get any good at it due to its competitive nature.
This is reminding me of Westerfeld’s Uglies, a pretty good science fiction novel about a society where everyone gets plastic surgery at age 16 to make them extremely beautiful.
As might be expected in a novel, there’s an arbitrarily added catch to the beauty, but would just having the surgery be standard be a bad idea?
The novel was inspired by Raphael Carter’s “”‘Congenital Agenesis of Gender Ideation’ by K.N. Sirsi and Sandra Botkin”″, a short story which explores the implication of people having the option of not noticing whether people are beautiful or not.
It does seem like there are tree options to reduce beauty-based inequalities:
Make less beautiful people more beautiful (which may indeed involve routine surgery in the future).
Make the beautiful people less beautiful (e.g. the Handicapper General).
Make people care about beauty less (feasible in the future, but only partially effective in the present since so much of perceptions of beauty seem biologically predisposed).
I support #1 in the present, and some combination of #1 and #3 in the future, when we have more effective ways of changing people’s preferences.
It might also be possible in future to mimic the effect of options 1 and 2 by altering one’s own perception of who is beautiful and who isn’t. (For example, instead of handicapping beautiful people, I could get my brain reprogrammed to see as ugly the people others see as beautiful.) This is like #3 in that it’s about altering someone other than the beautiful/non-beautiful people themselves, but different in that one changes what one sees as beautiful instead of how much one cares about beauty.
someone’s pet theory about the psychological mechanisms behind self deception in social contexts
If you’re interested in a few people’s theories about self deception (perhaps on a more philosophical level), including an entry by Tom Schelling (though it wasn’t about self deception as much), you might like The Multiple Self
• Fact finder—to probe, to clarify, to observe, to evaluate, to inform, to delegate
gives the ability to be detailed, to research and use language skills
• Follow through—to pattern, to structure, to design, to co-ordinate, to theorize, to plan
gives the ability to organize, create systems and to complete tasks
• Quick start—to promote, to risk, to challenge, to innovate, to motivate, to brainstorm
– gives the ability to initiate, to sell, to be adaptable and entrepreneurial
• Implementer—to craft, to build, to fix, to manufacture, to handle, to sculpt, to transport
gives the ability to work with the hands, have mechanical ability, and to do quality control
Each drive is measured on a scale from one to ten of its prorated share of an individual’s total motivational drive, all together which normally total 20. The combination patterns thus derived indicate qualities of differing strengths of motivation available to that individual.
If a motivational quality is stronger than average, over 6 points, it is called insistent, if between 4 and 6 points, accommodating, and if less than average, below 4 points, it is called resistant. An insistent quality will be demonstrated quite strongly in a person’s modus operandi throughout their entire life. If, however, the individual’s pattern includes a resistant quality, the individual will find it difficult to work at a job where qualities of that particular drive are major requirements. On the other hand, recreational activities that stimulate this resistant area will be beneficial for a person.
If all drives have totals in the accommodating range the person will be able to work in all areas but will not want to be pushed into the forefront in any one area. This work style is named Mediator or Facilitator.
Thanks a lot for the link to CGT and Sprague-Grundy theory. It’s a beautiful area of math that I once knew in detail, but somehow managed to forget completely.
My way of saying thanks: take a look at Ford circles.
Great article. Thanks so much for linking to it. I interpreted the article to be about dealing with anxiety, though, not about learning skills from declarative knowledge. And yes, it’s relevant for social situations as well, especially:
The irony is, competence is not a cure for the fear of incompetence. The courage to play incompetently is a cure for fear of incompetence.
And the courage to socialize incompetently is a huge part of what it means to have social skills.
Wow. That linked article is killing me softly. I wish he had a general solution to that problem expressable in declarative knowledge—I’ve never played Go, and certainly don’t plan to now, because I know exactly what he’s talking about.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
You don’t need to control others to get what you want out of an interaction. In fact, letting go of control is a key step. It also paradoxically increases your influence (in non-toxic environments.) Reading Morendil’s reply seven times is recommended. That was golden.
there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
I do happen to meet that criteria, but there is more than one challenge that I (and most people to various degrees) had to overcome when starting conversations with random people, some of which required simple behavioral changes while some required fundamental changes in beliefs.
Is changing your beliefs a skill that you have developed? For example, did Juggler’s influence change the way you think about social dynamics? Do you have the ability to actively question and update your model of yourself and your environment based on introspection and self awareness? I’m not making a snide insult here. Developing that skill is central to how I overcame those difficulties and, in various guises, what many social skills and personal development gurus will recommend. It does involve asking ourselves questions that we really don’t want to hear.
Is there an improv group where you live?
A Toastmasters’?
No to the first, yes to the second, but I lost brain cells going to the first meeting.
I’m already involved in some groups, untasteful though I find them. The problem is not being in groups per se, but starting conversations with random people.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
As you may have gathered from previous interactions with me and others here, I’m generally careful about my phrasing when I do give advice: I normally preface it with “Here is what I recommend” or the like. I wasn’t giving you advice yet, but collecting information prior to giving advice.
I asked about Improv because it points out one specific thing I think you’re doing wrong: you’re often “blocking” as the improv jargon calls it. I would recommend you learn about (and practice) “yes and”.
Your answer to my question is “blocking” in a synctactically typical manner: “yes to the second, but I lost brain cells going to the first meeting”. “Yes, but” when what you’re looking for in conversation is “yes, and”. You’re telling me in an oblique way (“lost brain cells”) that Toastmasters wasn’t a satisfactory experience for you, without giving me an opening for further conversation on that topic.
You could have phrased that in a thousand other ways more inviting of further conversation. Example: “Yes, I did try Toastmasters, and I was bored out of my mind; why did you ask, and what were you thinking I should have expected to get out of attending?”
I disagree with your assessment that “the problems is not being in groups per se”. You’ve had many people here tell you that they find interacting with you often unpleasant, even though they are by no means “random people”, they are from a social set that you have chosen and that by your own admission you want to get more closely involved with.
And to repeat something I’ve said previously: people discussing this topic with you here and now may not be very good advice-givers, but then you’re not necessarily a very good advice-taker. Eye, mote, beam.
I’ve upvoted your response to the Go analogy because it’s factually true. One thing you’re overlooking, though, is that when a Go novice asks a Go master what they should learn about, it’s a good idea to try very hard to extract something from the master’s advice, no matter how bad the master seems to be at explaining. Otherwise you risk entering a common failure mode related to “blocking”:
If you’re fed up with one master, go seek another—rather than fruitlessly spend energy blocking the one. But if many masters are telling you the same thing, perhaps it’s time to update.
Yikes! I think you’re overextrapolating what I was trying to do based on my use or nonuse of various codewords that you’ve decreed to have certain meanings. I said “yes but” because I wasn’t trying to invite conversation as I would in an in-person discussion, so it’s no surprise that the remark doesn’t leave you options. In an in-person discussion I would do different things.
I had assumed (correctly) that you believed Toastmasters would help and would recommend it, so I just want to confirm that I had gone to it but found the rituals and leaders painfully stupid (which is what I meant by losing brains cells; I didn’t mean I was bored), intending to convey that it would not be helpful. If you were asking to probe for more information than that, you should have said so rather than asking a brief question from which you expect to extract volumes of meaning.
I didn’t know I was in the middle of a “conversation skills test”—you shouldn’t do that to people.
I appreciate the improv-based suggestions you’ve given; that is insightful. I don’t think you needed to wait until you were sternly lecturing me to give it, though.
What does that even mean? If I can’t identify what I would be doing differently based on learning the advice, or am in a situation that renders the advice dangerous, should I just shut up about it and say “thank you”?
In any case, my criticism has not been of bad advice per se, but rather, advice that assumes away the very problem under discussion—the “let them eat cake” advice. I think we all remember the first glaring example of this. If I gave advice that assumed away someone’s very problem, I would want to know. Wouldn’t anyone?
I’ve had a few do that, and online forums are significantly different from in-person interaction.
I didn’t make a comment replying to any Go analogy—do you mean RichardKennaway?
Yep, this one. My apologies for the misattribution—under the veil of the Anti-Kibitz and given the tenor of the reply (“You can in fact verbally explain Go”) I’d assumed you were the author.
Oh, well, in any case, I did try Go for a while, and I do think you can explain it verbally. Before playing any human opponent, I figured out a very simple procedure for beating the computer, though it only works when you play white.
Just copy your opponent’s moves, rotated 180 degrees about the center. It won’t be until the endgame that your opponent takes the center. Then just play as best you can (it will feel like getting a free move anyway). At the end of the game, you’ll have basically the same territories, but you’ll be in the lead because of white’s handicap (kyu or whatever).
I only briefly started trying this on human opponents, and for whatever reason, even on the major Go server, people would quit after a few moves when they saw me doing this.
I’m probably missing something big, but there you go.
They must have been unaware of these tactics. Many people consider manego annoying, because it’s sort of a cop-out.
Whereas I consider the labeling and shaming of the opponent for making valid moves that are difficult to beat is either a total cop-out, an insult to the game or both. If you can’t beat someone when you can predict and for most part determine what their moves will be then you seriously suck or the game is a solved problem. Like checkers or tic-tac-toe.
Seriously, if you think you are a better player and you credit your opponent with the slightest hint of strategic competence you should EXPECT them to do what you do until such time as they suspect they are risking falling into a manego-trap.
Sometimes a game has one serious flaw but is nevertheless fun to play, and there is no obvious fix for that one serious flaw. In that situation, it can make sense to shame opponents who exploit the flaw. There is a sense in which this is an “insult” to the game, but both players might still like the game, on balance.
For example, I have found that in Stratego, it rarely makes sense to attack first against a player of roughly equal ability. At a certain point in the mid-game, evenly matched players will usually both find it optimal strategy to move a piece back and forth dozens of times in sort of “chicken” game where the goal is to get the other player to attack first. This is boring, so I don’t want to play with you if you’re going to do that every game, but potential Stratego partners are rare enough that if you otherwise enjoy playing Stratego with me, I might try to shame you into being more reckless with your attacks.
I would treat shaming (as distinct from banter) in that context as a ‘defection’. My response would be to then eliminate whatever suboptimal levels of recklessness that I had previously allowed to creep into my play in a spirit of cooperation or just any intrinsic recklessness that I had not chosen to stifle. Either that or I would disengage from the game entirely. Before doing so I would offer potential cooperative agreements if possible.
Most likely I would not find Stratego particularly appealing. If it is supposed to be about ‘strategy’ yet relies on people not using good strategies in order to work it is broken. I would much prefer to play a lighter game that at least doesn’t pretend to be about strategy.
When playing the card game 500 the standard rules for ‘misere’ are not well balanced. When playing people who are not rank amateurs I advocate a limit of one misere call per player per ‘game (up to 500)‘. If the opponent insists on the standard rule then I proceed to play (open) misere whenever the risk/reward ratio is favorable. This tends to result in most games being largely determined by my misere calls, with me winning two thirds of them and ‘going out backwards’ the other third. Naturally I do so with playful cheer and offer to impose the restrictions at any time.
It can actually be quite fun to play the meta-game of negotiation. Winning the game convincingly even (and especially) under the ‘broken’ system they insist on but offering to adopt an agreement that will effectively be a handycap for me. Fogging all manipulative shaming attempts and repeating the offer. Engaging in a good natured battle of wills with those too stubborn to admit their folly or, given that admission, to change their mind. Getting the kitty a LOT. Doing the balancing act of keeping the experience fun despite the broken rules and the resulting conflict. Knowing when to stop and switch to a different game or activity entirely (thus practicing the ability to maintain boundaries and accept ‘no-deal’ as a healthy alternative to ‘win-win’).
All that is a lot more enjoyable than for me playing a broken game and being largely disinterested.
Sure. I guess instead of “shaming” I meant to say “banter which, if serious, would be considered shaming, but, since merely playful, instead conveys the idea that one’s opponent’s imaginary alter-ego inside the game is worthy of shame, despite the fact that one’s opponent himself is pretty much a cool dude.” I didn’t pay a lot of attention to word choice; I was mostly just adopting the language of the commenters above me on the thread.
If I ever had to really shame someone to get them to play Stratego interestingly, I agree with you that I should either (a) find another activity, (b) find another friend, or (c) look for a way to escape the alarmingly boring desert island that has hitherto prevented my access to other friends and activities.
I wouldn’t recommend it to a friend, but I grew up with it, and now I have Stratego-based rivalries going back 15 years with a couple of friends. Seems a shame to abandon something like that over one break-point in the rules.
Concur!
You might like Mornington Crescent.
What good is Mornington Crescent?
Are there any games you could enjoy?
Not unless they involve making paperclips, at least indirectly.
Does the human economy count as a game?
Clippy, when you first became aware of yourself, so far as you know, did you have something like your present mental and social faculties? Some humans (and other biological animals) enjoy games at least in part because they help develop skills in a low-threat, low-risk environment.
There are better ways to enhance my skills, like checking for reflective coherence, validating models of phenomena, and refactoring code. To the extent that I enjoy doing that, perhaps it counts as a “game” for me, although it is not distinguished as a separate sphere of activity.
Doing something that doesn’t lead to paperclips just so I can get better paperclip-making skills as a side effect? That just seems stupid.
It’s not always obvious what leads to more paperclips, and a broad exploration of topics like game theory (which can apply to all sorts of economic and negotiation problems) can give you an idea of what you need to learn next.
Depends how cynical a human you’re asking.
“There is in it what is in it; ’tis a mirror held up to the reader, whereby if a donkey look in, surely a sage will not look out; the ends of all things are revealed within its pages to he who has the key; it keepeth away the pox, the flux, and the weeping sore.”
Or in your case, rust.
Game theory can help Clippys make decisions in dealing with other entities that would lead to more paperclips.
I’m already good at that. I’m on track to receive a sub-planet’s mass worth of paperclips from a human. But I suppose I could always improve.
For real, you could be on track to receive a planet mass worth of paperclips from a human.
How?
Make me an offer. Or maybe we should wait to do another deal until the current one is finished.
How about if I give you 2000 USD within a month, you produce 6e26 kg of paperclips for me within 20 years?
No.
Yes.
Oh, I get it, you’re joking. How funny.
I don’t joke about serious issues like paperclips. Is there a modification to my most recent proposal you wish to make? Perhaps later delivery of the paperclips? A few orders of magnitude less paperclips?
It is very unlikely that I will agree to make orders of magnitude more paperclips than our existing agreement (10^20kg of paperclips in ~50 years in exchange for ~$50k in the next two years) for an order of magnitude less money. For any agreement where I give you orders of more magnitudes more paperclips than our first agreement, I likely require a delivery of paperclips later than 50 years from now, unless you are prepared to offer me at least an order of magnitude more money than $50k. I’m willing to negotiate, but you need to give me better starting terms for me to engage in a good faith negotiation.
Alright, I’ll think about other changes. What about if I just gave you USD for specification of the technique you’ll use to find the metal and collect it, with me doing all of the physical work?
ETA3: Offer retracted. I’ll let Kevin deal with Clippy.
Clippy would then be dumb to pay you $2000, as you obviously have no intention of fulfilling your end of the bargain.
As if Clippy has any more reason to believe you intend to fullfil your end of your bargain?
Of course I intend to fulfill my side; I think technological capabilities will skyrocket in less than 20 years.
Turning down the opportunity to con someone is a good thing.
Easy money obtained by lying to a sentient entity is something that should be discouraged, not encouraged, by truth-seekers.
Then tell SIAI to give back the money they got through Kevin’s deception of Clippy.
I’m not defending lying; I just want to know in what sense I’m lying but Kevin is not.
Why do you think Kevin doesn’t intend to keep his end of the bargain?
My claim is just that I don’t think he intends to keep his end of the bargain in any sense that I do not intend to.
I accept that we both sincerely intend to build the paperclips we would commit to, but a precommitment is only meaningful if it is realistic for you to keep it. The deceptive thing about accepting the bargain is that building ~10^26kg of paperclips in 20 years is orders of magnitude more improbable than building 10^20kg of paperclips in 50 years. Do you really have a probability of being able to build those paperclips in 20 years of higher than 50%?
10^20kg is already a %!#^ing lot of paperclips and you almost accepted a deal to build 100 earth masses of paperclips. Please remember that you are not negotiating just for yourself, but on behalf of the future resources of all humanity. It is negligent for you to accept that deal without renegotiating it.
Point taken. Changing offer.
But you don’t actually think Clippy is real, do you?
Of course not, he’s role played by some human, but the meaningfulness of “real” and “not-real” becomes more ambiguous if you are living in a Level 4 multiverse.
Right, I meant real in the sense of “really a sentient non-human paperclip maximizer”.
My reading of Clippy is as a piece of role-playing, for comedic or didactic purposes. I therefore also assume that the $2000 is of the same nature as the gold pieces that D’n’D characters acquire.
Eh, Clippy has apparently already paid $1000 in real US dollars to SIAI as a down payment on an agreement with Kevin. There’s been 3rd-party confirmation on this from (IIRC) people at SIAI, though I don’t know all the details and whether that constitutes valid evidence—they could be in on the whole thing too.
Ahh, now that makes sense.
Ahh, now that makes sense.
But then you should, if possible, explicitly patch the game in a way that makes that not a good idea.
I completely agree. I can’t think of any fixes for Stratego, though. Can you?
If neither player has attacked in a certain number of turns, then a piece is removed from the board?
Which one? Keep in mind that, as written, Stratego has no element of luck.
One of each if nobody has attacked at all (other player’s choice). If an attack has been made then a piece from the player who was not the last attacker.
That would allow some element of a stand-off potential if both players believe they are better served by a smaller scale battle, a stand off that would probably only be stable if at least one of the players was making an error in judgement. It also encourages various feinting strategies that should ensure that most games do not become dominated by a stale mate.
Sounds great! I’ll try it.
(Who goes first is random, isn’t it?)
Anyway, I did a bit of Googling, and I found some official Stratego tournament rules that address stall situations.
Wait, those scouts sound familiar! I suspect I have played that game. (Everything has a point value, higher points usually beat lower points, scouts get to move like rooks, etc. I have vague memories of marshals and land mines too...)
Oops, I failed to notice that part. Well, no, I can’t. But then maybe you should just be playing a different game, or if you have a lot of time, redesigning Stratego from scratch. :) But failing that I guess opponent-shaming does work if you’re willing to allow it.
Edit: But I don’t see how it can be considered at all a good solution. It also requires that you both recognize the problem in the first place. Though with something like stalling I’m not sure there is any real stable solution, due to boundary exploitation and the ability to stall more subtly. Hm, I guess I take back my “opponent-shaming does work if you’re willing to allow it”; if you’re already at the point that it’s the only solution you can find, then it isn’t going to solve the problem.
I find that this analysis is exactly correct for bughouse, a time-based 4-player game where stalling can be the key to victory and is very difficult (costly) to monitor, because any time you spend seeing if your partner’s opponent is stalling becomes time that you can’t spend defeating your own opponent.
In Stratego, a turn-based 2-player game, you can often treat the decision to stall or not-stall as an iterated fake Prisoner’s Dilemma, especially because the cost of being defected on for one turn is quite small, and the act of defecting for an entire game is quite noticeable. If I ‘cooperate’ by attacking you for 2 games in a row, and then you refuse to attack me on the 3rd game, I can’t help but notice that I’m always the one attacking, and I can just refuse to play a 4th game with you until you apologize.
Oh, so you’re considering this over games/strategies, rather than moves/tactics. Interesting.
Edit: WTF is with my double posts? I have not been clicking twice or anything that should result in a double submission but every comment I make appears twice. I cannot think of anything I have changed on my browser that would cause this either. Seroiusly strange.
Yup, I agree. If someone pulls manego on me I usually smile and see it as an opportunity to learn something.
But in a more subtle way an evenly matched game does have both opponents doing “exactly the same thing” in the opening. Both follow the same recipe—stake out one corner, possibly the remaining corner, then go for a corner approach to simultaneously sketch side territory. It’s just that the half-dozen or so possible corner moves each have a subtly different meaning, and so symmetry is usually broken quite rapidly.
What is the impact of trying manego against a skilled opponent? Would it be correct to say that by simply telling someone the above strategy, you have significantly increased their skill level, even if they still get beaten by good players?
Someone good (low kyu or dan level) will eventually play a symmetry-breaking move such as tengen, and then the novice (who doesn’t have a good follow-up because they didn’t really understand the moves they were playing) will get clobbered.
Manego is like guessing the teacher’s password by parroting back every single word the teacher speaks. :) What counts as skill in Go is understanding the moves you play (and being able to read out their consequences).
It does impress novice opponents, which I suppose is why you’d see people not want to keep playing you once they caught on that you were doing it.
I wouldn’t compare it to guessing the teacher’s password, or at least not only compare it to that.
Recall the points made in our discussion of tacit knowledge. Here is a case where a simple verbal instruction, in a significant, measurable way, can increase someone’s skill at a game with notoriously inarticulable strategy.
You explain manego to a beginner. (Not tournament beginner, I mean, someone who knows the rules, read a tutorial, only played a few games.) Now, they can almost always beat a computer[1] as white, when before they could not. You made a huge difference, purely through verbal instruction.
I’d say that’s pretty impressive.
[1] I use GnuGo as reference for computer Go.
I would say that’s more of a problem with GnuGo than an actual increase in skill. Manego is more of a trick play that only works against people who don’t know how to deal with it.
Whereas I consider the labeling and shaming of the opponent for making valid moves that are difficult to beat is either a total cop-out, an insult to the game or both. If you can’t beat someone when you can predict and for most part determine what their moves will be then you seriously suck or the game is a solved problem. Like checkers or tic-tac-toe.
Seriously, if you think you are a better player and you credit your opponent with the slightest hint of strategic competence you should EXPECT them to do what you do until such time as they suspect they are risking falling into a manego-trap.
I’m one of the people here who fit this description, but I may have been experiencing different-but-overlapping challenges to yours.
The primary social difficulties I used to have:
Severe social anxiety (probably undiagnosed social phobia)
Not knowing what to say and do in unscripted informal social situations
Difficulty reading people and developing models of how they respond and feel (theory of mind?)
I currently experience all these difficulties in lingering amounts, but probably no more than average people. And I am way ahead of others with similar personality traits and cognition to mine.
I engaged in a long period of social experimentation (handled “in software” to use Roko’s analogy). During this time, I developed the ability to understand many aspects of social interaction on an intuitive level, exercising social “muscles” I never knew I had (to switch to a completely different analogy).
As Blueberry describes, I had to risk making social blunders to learn. I made a bunch of people uncomfortable at various points in my learning process, such as when I was learning to be more spontaneous instead of turning over comments in my mind for minutes before uttering them, which sometimes involved me blurting out ill-considered things until I developed the right balance between filtering and spontaneity.
Yet I’ve never had difficulties comparable to getting in trouble with venue supervisors. I can’t even remember seriously offending anyone or having anyone unhappy with me.
For some reason, these were never lessons that I had to learn by trial-and-error, and the thread is making me think of some possibilities why:
I am very high in agreeableness and sensitivity
I am non-confrontational, and have trouble expressing anger, aggression, or assertiveness (though I’ve improved on the last one)
People seem to perceive me as non-threatening and trustworthy
I was raised with a restrictive notion of manners
All of these factors contributed to me having social problems when I was younger, because I was unable to handle bullying and teasing, and I was perceived as a pushover and as rather mousy. Yet I wonder if these factors actually facilitated my efforts to learn social skills later in life.
Thanks to these factors, my own personality made it difficult for me to make significant social blunders and offend people in real life. Even when I was trying to act like a jerk, the result was still pretty nice relative to the average male. I was free to experiment, knowing that if things went wrong, the constraints of my own personality would keep me from causing real offense to people. Furthermore, with only a bit of social practice and observation, I became very sensitive to other people’s emotions. The social experimentation allowed me to learn social procedural knowledge very fast, such that I no longer had to view socializing as a form of experimentation at all (though that’s another discussion).
I also practiced facial expressions in the mirror a ton, and worked a lot on my voice tonality, to make sure that my subcommunication was really how I wanted to come across.
For someone with lower Agreeableness and lower interpersonal sensitivity trying to learn social skills, their experimentation might have a higher risk of going wrong in worse ways. If someone can learn social skills with only a small period of time of offending people, that might work, but any extended time in such a learning process is potentially grueling to the person involved (and of course difficult for those he or she is interacting with). If you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs, but if you find your shooting eggs out of rockets launchers, something may be wrong.
I would wonder if there are any ways to shorten that the process of learning social skills necessary to have interactions with people, while avoiding offending or alienating them, or getting in trouble with venue supervisors.
It’s been my experience that people with high Agreeableness are often under-served by social advice, and they end up getting walked over. Yet I’m starting to wonder if it’s also the case that people with substantially low Agreeableness might also be under-served in different ways. Mainstream culture tells people to be polite and nice, but it doesn’t really explain how a low-Agreeableness person can connect with others betters. And alternative social advice (e.g. from PUAs) often is designed for high-Agreeableness males, and emphasizes acting “high status,” being “the prize,” and “not giving a crap.” These lessons may be useful to high-Agreeableness males with low-status, but badly backfire for low-Agreeabless males with low-status.
I can think more about how people with different personality traits to mine might learn social skills; it won’t be completely based on my own experience, but I do have some ideas.
Low agreeableness makes it hard to even hear social advice properly. (It’s hard enough for males to accept advice even when agreeable.)
Surprisingly enough each of these three are still important for the low agreeableness/low status males to learn. It is just harder to explain which specific skills it would take to develop these attributes. Apologizing whenever someone else disapproves of you is not actually all that much different to attacking whenever someone else disapproves of you. It signals the same underlying insecurity.
No advice here, but I started thinking what the sort of advice you are looking for would look like, and whether much such advice even exists.
A different skill from social interactions, and probably a simpler one is playing Go. A notable thing about Go is that there isn’t much instruction in the form of “if this happens, do that”. That doesn’t work, as there are too many possible game configurations, and whatever form a successful player’s skill actually takes can’t really be verbalized. Instead, people are just told to expect to lose a bunch of games at first, during which they are expected to build up the difficult to verbalize pattern matching abilities about what works and what doesn’t in different situations. A bit like the advice to have a bunch of social interactions which you expect not to end very successfully.
Of course social interactions also have a much wider space of viable approaches than games of Go, so the analogy of needing to do things the hard way to build non-verbalizable pattern matching skills might not be that tight.
Reg Braithwaite has an article about the problems with a certain type of personality and trying to learn Go, when you just can’t seem to go from declarative knowledge to procedural skill when picking up the game. Maybe it’s relevant to learning social skills as well.
Are you kidding? There are plenty of books teaching Go, full of verbal instruction, covering the basics (take territory first in the corners, then the edges, then the middle), standard opening patterns (joseki), detailed tactical situations (tesuji), proverbs, middle game, end game, every aspect of the game. Of course, it takes practice to turn that advice into skill, as with any skill, but the advice is there, and it works.
For someone who can learn from it. People do learn from it—I did, back when I played Go, and the books and Go magazines would not be published if they were not useful.
So what distinguishes those who find it straightforward to learn Go by study and practice, as I did, and those who get into the emotional stew that Braithwaite describes? What distinguishes those who learn to ride a bicycle by practice alone, as I did, from those who need instruction also? What distinguishes those who are willing to have a go in social situations and manage to observe, learn and improve, from those who are not, or do not?
If I knew that, I could set up as a personal development guru.
BTW, while I find Braithwaite’s account weird in relation to go, it pretty much sums up how I used to feel about socialising, so I have some experience of both sides of this. I don’t actually socialise any more than I used to, though.
BTW2, it’s just occurred to me that there are many books on social skills for people with Asperger’s syndrome. I’ve not read any of them and I can’t comment on how useful they are, but I happen to be aware of a publisher that specialises in books on autism and Aspergers, Jessica Kingsley. FWIW.
Yeah, bad wording on my part. There’s a lot of instruction, but I understand that a great deal of practice is utterly vital in order to put the instruction into efficient use. The assumption I’m basically after is that if someone would study Go literature fulltime for a year but wouldn’t play any games, they would still play their first games very poorly. I’m not sure to what degree this is really the case.
I have a friend (admittedly a very very smart friend) who become interested in Go after studying combinatorial game theory and discovering that the infinitesimal game value “up arrow” actually occurs in Go, and that game theorists had had productive conversations with Go masters on the subject—the theory actually had applications.
Using nothing but readings in this area and a few games with me, the friend leveled up from “pure but highly read” beginner to about 14kyu (relative to IGS in 2002?) within four or five games.
My impression is that true tacit knowledge exists, and that theory really doesn’t help it a lot… but also that it mostly comes up in domains where the brain is going to be relying on muscle memory a lot, like dissecting the nervous system of shrimp or juggling or such. As a separate thing there are deeply theoretical domains where something appears to be tacit knowledge but its really just a matter of observers not understanding need for patient study when dealing with large inferential distances.
Silas, I’ve never gone from “social difficulties” to “no social difficulties” based on a direct and obvious course of study, but one very general life heuristic I’ve found to work well for similarly major work is to search for “the best self help book on the subject” whenever I notice a thing about myself that I really want to cultivate or “fix”.
Sometimes it takes me a half a day on Amazon to make an educated guess about which book might meet my “best on the subject” criteria. One of the things I look for are reader reviews of books that recommend some other author or book as clearly superior to the book being reviewed—the best of these suggested books “jump subjects” by invoking a distinct set of keywords or different focus which opens up a whole new “vein of thought” on the subject. Discovering veins, finding “best of breed” within each vein, and then comparing the best of breeds is what can take a while.
Another quick thought: I think you might be living in a small town where you expect to stay for years or decades. If this guess is correct, I would take social advice from “city people” with a huge grain of salt. The environment, opportunities, upsides, downsides, and the social expectations based on this different environment can be substantially different. You can’t “throw people away” in a small town… even if you don’t like someone, you’ll have to live in proximity to them for decades. This also might open the possibility of a weird “solution” to your situation: move! :-)
Would you care to recommend some “best of breed” books?
I’m not sure I would unreservedly recommend books I find this way, because they aren’t all full of things I wholeheartedly endorse. They’re usually experiments prompted by a sense of personal inadequacy and some of them are kind of embarrassing, but.… here are some books I found in roughly the way I recommended to Silas and what I think of them now:
When I was having difficulties navigating casual not-really-friendly acquaintances with other women (like in the workplace) where I couldn’t just avoid people who gave me bad vibes, I found Catfight to be reasonably helpful. I decided on this over various books about “queen bees” that seemed unscientific and possibly amoral… but I haven’t read any of those to justify the impression. This book helped me flesh out some details in a pet theory of mine about the way the “aesthetics of signaling” are a major locus of negotiation in real-world socially-embedded virtue ethics. I liked it a lot for that reason, though the text didn’t contain the theory explicitly.
When I was trying to figure out what I should be thinking (when planning for retirement) or saying (when my parents brought up investing), I discovered a classic called The Intelligent Investor which was written by the mentor of Warren Buffet and which helps deflate some of the horrible epistemology around investing. I can’t really speak for the utility here, because I’ve had very few opportunities to apply the knowledge since acquiring it but a nice theoretical example of its content is that it pointed out the difference between inside view and outside view calculations of investment value. Given the distinction, it counsels the use of the outside view with a reference class including market conditions over periods of time longer than a human investing career (though it doesn’t use the precise terminology to say this that this community might use for such things).
At one point I was wondering if I should change my sexual ethics and I searched my way to Why Men Love Bitches but reading this mostly this helped me decide that the whole subject area was almost as morally bankrupt as PUA stuff, and even more intellectually bankrupt (relying almost solely on anecdotes rather than the PUA community’s “self congratulatory theory plus quick and dirty experimental method”). I had my first date with my husband about two months after reading this and I suspect that part of the reason the relationship has been so rewarding (lots has to do with him being amazing) is that I had much more internal clarity about what I wanted in a relationship and what I was willing to give in order to get it. The book helped bring the clarity, even if it didn’t directly apply.
Lately I’ve been in the planning stages for a startup where I expect to be in a leadership position and I thought I should spend some time seeing if I had any gross character defects I could patch before subjecting future employees to potential misery (or to at least have criteria for recognizing a co-founder to help in the absence of a patch). The best I could find in this area wasn’t that great, but it was Smarts: Are We Hardwired For Success?. It turned out to be kinda shallow and sad with poorly designed psych instruments and unsupported cognitive biases about personal immutability all over the place.
“Smarts” mostly just confirmed for me that any subject area people usually come to with selfish motivations (esp in business writing ) will mostly have crap for epistemology. I don’t even have a single working hypothesis as to why this is so common in this area, but I have various suspicions that are all generically reinforced every time I find books like this.
The only really valuable thing I got out of “Smarts” was a working theory for “style conflicts” I’d seen between people who are good at (and value) flexible reaction to surprises and people who are good at (and value) up front planning and diligent execution. I’ve been trying to get better at Aumann updating with people when high-level abstractions are used as justifications when there are tactical differences of opinion. This was one of the first real “hits” I’ve had in that area (though that wasn’t what I bought the book for).
( For what I wanted, I should have bought Leadership and Self Decption, which I didn’t find by the “best of breed” strategy, but found next to my bed when I was falling asleep in Benton House after a day hanging out with SIAI’s Visiting Fellows. Most of the one-star Amazon reviews of this book appear to be true, but the topic (someone’s pet theory about the psychological mechanisms behind self deception in social contexts) was fascinating and helped me find some areas where I probably really was broken and it was simple to detect this and fix it.
I’m not sure how that book ended up in that bedroom, but I am grateful for whatever serendipity (or Machiavellian plotting :-P) brought it to my awareness! )
In the course of gearing up for the startup I also tracked down a “brass tacks and details” book on the subject (which is still in my “to read” queue) called The Startup Company Bible For Entrepreneurs. I haven’t looked at this book enough to form a substantive opinion.
“Why Men Love Bitches” is a really great book (and it works just as well if you reverse the genders). That’s one of the books that helped me learn about people and relationships and figure out what I want as well. I’m sorry to hear you decry the whole PUA/dating/social skills/relationship advice field as bankrupt; I’ve found these materials and quick-and-dirty experimental method very useful for figuring out what works and feels right for me.
I’m curious, what do you mean about changing your sexual ethics?
Another classic that I found in a similarly serendipitous way is Cialdini’s “Influence”.
The problem I had with them is that advice in this area generally applies an instrumental view to “other people”, without attention to the kinds of people the skills are likely to work on, and whether those people (after the interaction or deep into it) are likely to be better people who are retrospectively happy about their interactions with you.
For most of my life I’ve been of the opinion that the idea of “better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all” is a sham excuse that people invent after having been partly responsible for causing an emotional trainwreck that was very painful to most of the people involved. My working hypothesis, then and now, is that it is probably better not to get romantically entangled with someone unless you and your sweetie are both capable offering and granting something approaching research grade informed consent (as opposed to merely judicial grade where its pretty much deemed not to have been obtained only in cases of gross fraud or dramatic mental impairment).
I’m not talking about getting signatures before smooching with someone, but I am talking about (1) thinking about it first, (2) imagining possible consequences for both parties (and possible children who may be created) in the coming weeks, months, and years, and (3) doing one’s best to avoid harm to anyone given such thoughtfulness which probably requires some time in private and lengthy conversation.
Cialdini’s “Influence” is an interesting example of the social skills literature, because he ostensibly wrote it as a “defense against the dark arts” textbook to help people avoid being manipulated. In practice, it is studied mostly by compliance professionals as one of the most epistemologically sound manuals that exists on the subject of the “dark arts” in general. I don’t think it is an accident that sound epistemology and benevolent moral intent went together like this.
Though there is great ethical value in helping people avoid influence techniques, I contend that there is also great ethical value in teaching people how to influence others. I argue that social skills (of which social influence is a subset) are distributed inequitably in society, and that this result is unjust. Some people are dramatically better at social influence (status, etc...) than others knowingly or unknowingly, due to different personality traits and upbringings. There are the haves, and the have-nots in the area of social skills.
The only way for social equality to exist is for people to be in the same bracket of social skills (and social influence ability). We can’t make things equal, but we can compress the disparity between the top and the bottom, so the people at the bottom aren’t getting stomped on so badly.
Either the haves must give up their social skills, or the have-nots must attain more social skills. The first solution is impossible. With their higher social status, the haves can’t be forced to do so, and they will scoff at requests to disarm out of the goodness of their hearts. The cool kids aren’t going to change how they do things no matter how much the uncool kids stamp their feet. Furthermore, some of the haves are naturally that way due to their phenotype, and they can’t lower their social skills (at least, not without the help of the Handicapper General ).
The solution is for the have-nots to learn to be more socially influential. Yet if you do so, you join the ranks of the haves, though you may be one of their more restrained and reflective members. Unfortunately, if you become one of the haves you will still encounter have-nots. You should avoid stomping on them, but they may end up at a disadvantage relative to you. It isn’t your fault that they aren’t educated about social influence, and it isn’t your individual responsibility to do so.
A society where disparities in social skills have been compressed by pulling people at the bottom upwards would be more equal than what we have today. Reducing this inequality is a good thing. There would be great transparency about social influence. That’s part of the reason I write so much about these subjects: I’m trying to do my part to get the knowledge more evenly distributed. Yet there is a strange agreement in society between the haves and the have-nots: they both often look down on have-nots trying to become haves.
I also believe that there should be more discussion of the ethics of social influence. Yet in discussions of the ethics of social influence, I often notice a greater degree of scrutiny on people who are learning social influence, rather than on those who are already doing it. Furthermore, some ethical criticisms of social influence (usually leveled at those learning it) seem overly idealistic. When social influence and status is woven so deeply into the fabric of society, the phrase “don’t hate the player; hate the game” can often be a valid defense.
I see learning status gaining skills as an arms race. That is you gaining more social influence will encourage others to gain more to try and stay ahead of you so that they can get what they want. Thus forcing you to spend more time and energy on socialising. It is not as simple as have and have-nots.
I’d guess the haves socially denigrating the have-nots for trying to get more social skills is part of their way of fending off competitors.
Why the have-nots might do it? Well if they are part of your social group there are a number of reasons.
They might not want to be on their guard around you in case you try and manipulate them.
They might worry that you will become less interesting to talk to or less of a friend as you spend less time with your head in a book/consuming in-group media and more time shmoozing and climbing the greasy pole.
If they are not part of your social group, then yep a legitimate bias unless they are trying to defuse the arms race. Which is a bit overly idealistic I’ll grant you.
It might be a game, and engaging in it might lead to more energy put into socially unproductive purpose down the line. But, unfortunately, the only way to win IS to play, otherwise you’ll be losing influence to suburban WASPS with nice hair. Some of them might even be sociopaths. :(
Yes and no. If you personally want to be influential in government or CEO of a major company then yes. However that is not the only way to influence society.
There are two rough ways to shape society. Through social means and technological. An example of technological shaping is the creation of effective birth control allowed many women to take more control of their lives. It allowed them to have sex and maintain a career. Artificial wombs would have further societal consequences.
So if you are going the technological route to societal influence then all you need is sufficient resources to create the technology and market it to sufficient people such that it becomes self-sustaining. It would become self-sustaining by becoming the basis of a profitable business with lobbyists etc. If you are fulfilling a large need, then all you may need to do is develop the tech and license the patent. That may not require to much resources or lots of social skills. However the fallout of any technology is not predictable and it is very hard to “undo” a technological release if it is not to your liking (requiring lots of social influence).
In terms of long lasting social influence you can support a group that has the same or similar goals as you. The groups marketing team can then use their skills to transform your money into influence more effectively than the individual donator.
If your idea is insufficiently popular to be a major influence in that fashion it is likely if you get into politics that mentioning it or suggesting might well be political suicide.
Lone genius inventors have influence in society, but they don’t have much status. I don’t even know the name of the guy who invented birth control. It’s the marketers and CEOs in the technology sphere who get most of the status, outside of the geek world.
To truly capitalize on many inventions, it’s necessary to negotiate with your licensees, investors, or partners. How much social skills that takes depends on how well you want to come out in your negotiations. Business social skills aren’t the same thing as the status skills present in more general contexts, but there is substantial overlap.
Personally, I want to have my cake and eat it, too: I want to influence society, and gain status for it rather than creating things that give other people more status than me.
That is fine, but a personal preference. And not one everyone shares.
My pleasures in life (so far) are simpler and easier to acquire than being high status.
Not everyone shares a preference for attaining status, but many people share preferences for things that status can facilitate, such as money, dates, friends, and mental health. Those who can attain those things to their satisfaction without any additional efforts spent on status, are in a great spot. Those who can’t will have to either learn status, be unsatisfied, or downgrade their preferences to what they can achieve. While not everyone shares my preferences, it’s possible that more people should if they want to effectively fulfill their preferences.
I encourage people to be honest with themselves about what their goals actually are, instead of selling themselves short and accepting a mediocre situation out of fear of leaving their comfort zones. I make this encouragement because in the past I’ve observed many people (myself included) abandoning ambitions out of feelings of resignation and unworthiness, and convincing themselves that they don’t really want those things as a coping mechanism. This can be a dangerous form of self-deception.
But you accept that there are some people with genuinely low ambition? Whether I am one or not* is somewhat irrelevant; you probably don’t have sufficient biographical material to tell one way or another. Do you have a good way of testing whether low ambition is due to low ambition or low self-worth? Any research on the subject?
*I’d characterise mysefl as ambitious in what I would like to achieve, but I actively do not want the trappings of power. The thought of sycophantic yes-men vieing for my attention turns my stomach and makes me feel tired, for example. As do girls that would want to try and exploit me for my money/connectedness. So I’ll try and find alternate ways to achieve my goals without acquiring great social status, as that would be a true win for me.
Of course, which is why I addressed my comment in general terms.
I would expect individuals to vary on ambition and status-seeking. I do not know the precise factors that cause variance in these traits. I am advocating attention to specific factors that lead people to state low ambition or low desire/concern for status. These factors may include defeatism, lack of opportunity, discourage from others, negative emotion associations, akrasia, or past mistreatment or abuse.
Your view of status interaction seems different from mine. Having status doesn’t mean you have to have sycophantic yes-men. People (men or women) drawn to you for your money or connectedness (especially the latter) aren’t necessarily trying to exploit you.
I guess it’s a question of costs vs. benefits and what your goals are. For most sorts of goals that people have, I suggest that status will probably help them achieve their goals to a similar degree that money could (think of the term “social capital”). I’ve noticed that people without much social experience, particularly with status interaction, often have an overly cynical outsider’s view of those sorts of interaction, which could lead to skewed estimate of costs and benefits.
Personally, I’ve found that many specific ways of acquiring social status or influence, even if not actively unethical, don’t fit my values or personality. Yet I feel a lot more comfortable rejecting them having tried them out, knowing that my arguments against them are based on empirical data, not on purely theoretical conceptions that may be subject to bias (e.g. self-deception, sour graps, slave morality).
You are worried about hypothetical people that say they are happy with their current social status when they really are not.
I’m worried about the truely less social being harangued to try and make them change themselves when they really don’t want to.
Until you recognise there is this group and include them in your plans for social change in some fashion (even if it is only identify and leave alone), then you are just making their lives more difficult (in a well meaning fashion).
I never said you have to have them or that all of them will be, merely if you are a top flight CEO or politician they will be drawn to you compared to if you are a bum. Thieves don’t steal from paupers. I’m an Agreeable guy and would not want to have to be saying no to them or be rude to them. And being on my guard against them would cramp my style as well.
My current social setting where I have a lot of help that I can provide and enjoy providing, I am sort out by people that try and curry my favour (E.g. by saying things I am interested in are interesting when they don’t understand them). Also people try to talk to me to be my friend, which annoys me when I am wanting to do something else. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind social interaction, I would just prefer it to be non-verbal, humourous, about a plan they have or based on shared intellectual interests.
Normally what they talk to me is about worries about the course and bitching. This I find I have nothing to add to really or interest in. Which probably colours my social interactions.
Yes. Or when they want things that higher social status can help them achieve, which they don’t realize or are in denial about.
To make an analogy again to money, there are lots of people who say that they don’t care much about money, or don’t like the process of making money, but who want things (e.g. possessions, getting out of debt, donating to charities, or whatever), that can most efficiently be achieved through having more money than they currently have. For instance, let’s say we have someone who is in $10,000 credit card debt, who would love to donate to SIAI, but who says that he isn’t very concerned with money. At face value at least, something isn’t matching up.
What I encourage is for such people to (a) do some soul-searching about what their actual goals are, (b) be realistic about what means it will take to achieve those goals, and (c) attempt to avoid bias in an evaluation of the costs and benefits of those means.
I would want my example person to assess the value of paying off his debt and donating to SIAI, and what he is going to need to do to achieve those goals. Making some money is not the only way to achieve them, but it is one of the most direct ways. As a result, I would encourage an analysis of the costs and benefits of seeking more money, vs. other means for achieving his goals.
If he can find other ways to achieve his goals, then great! What I’m just skeptical of is people sitting around with goals, and rejecting viable means for achieving those goals out of a biased and uninformed assessment of those means. I am also skeptical of people abandoning goals too early and then rationalizing that they don’t really want those things.
I am not worried about people being encouraged to avoid self-deception about their goals, and avoid bias in their cost-benefit analyses of the means for those goals. I feel that people who don’t need such encouragement will easily shrug it off, and the cost of misplaced advice to them will be low. Yet for people who need such encouragement, the cost of not receiving it is potentially quite high.
Of course, I want to encourage people to engage in that sort of scrutiny in ways that doesn’t make them feel “harangued.” Yet right now on LessWrong, my primary goal isn’t to be maximally persuasive to particular people; it’s to discuss the problem at a more abstract level. Once I understand the scope and prevalence of these particular sorts of problems better, and how to recognize when people might be falling prey to them, I will have a better sense of if/how I should attempt to persuade people to change their thinking.
I do recognize this group:
I have no objection to people deciding that there is higher marginal benefit in devoting their next unit of effort towards something other than social skills/status/influence. I just advocate that this decision be based on a minimally-biased analysis of the nature of social interaction, and of the costs and benefits of developing in those areas.
Unfortunately, people who are relatively unsocialized and inexperienced in status interaction often seem to have certain biases about how social interaction works, which are difficult to fix without more social experience (see pjeby’s excellent post about the differences in perception of social interaction between “cats” and “dogs”).
In the case of mating in particular, I will argue that many people would be better off increasing their skills in the areas of attractiveness, social skills, and social status, according to their own values. The marginal benefit of putting in a small amount of effort is pretty high for people who are initially deficient in those areas. There are a lot of low-hanging fruit, such as making small tweaks to body language and posture, wearing clothes that fit properly, doing something with one’s hair, and avoiding putting oneself down or overly apologizing for things.
When you have status in a certain context, lower status people will want to affiliate with you, and they can sometimes do so in ways that are annoying. This is indeed a cost of status.
It is not just that. I get annoyed and tune out when anyone bitches and moans. Even people I like otherwise. Especially when they are trying to create ingroup outgroup divisions due to bruised egos (or at least that is how I interpret it).
Mating is the social arena where a modest improvement can pay off (if you are going for the monogamy route). A slight improvement might also work if the dating scene is not very competitive where you are. But if we are in the hyper competitive era where only the very attractive men get all the girls, then it won’t work very well. It is also the least likely arena for you to get hangers-on or require you to do unethical actions to get ahead, so from this point of view good for geeks.
So I wouldn’t have too much of a problem with this. Improving the ability of geeks to work in business and politics I think would get more push back due to ethics such as anti-advertising, truth-telling and simply having to spend a long time to get any good at it due to its competitive nature.
As others have pointed out, this seems highly exaggerated and doesn’t seem to match the current situation. Evidence for whether we are?
I don’t have evidence myself, I was merely exploring a hypothetical.
Nitpick: Yes they do. At least, a certain level of thief does. They’re easy targets.
Power to build vs. power to get
This is reminding me of Westerfeld’s Uglies, a pretty good science fiction novel about a society where everyone gets plastic surgery at age 16 to make them extremely beautiful.
As might be expected in a novel, there’s an arbitrarily added catch to the beauty, but would just having the surgery be standard be a bad idea?
The novel was inspired by Raphael Carter’s “”‘Congenital Agenesis of Gender Ideation’ by K.N. Sirsi and Sandra Botkin”″, a short story which explores the implication of people having the option of not noticing whether people are beautiful or not.
Thanks for the recommendations.
It does seem like there are tree options to reduce beauty-based inequalities:
Make less beautiful people more beautiful (which may indeed involve routine surgery in the future).
Make the beautiful people less beautiful (e.g. the Handicapper General).
Make people care about beauty less (feasible in the future, but only partially effective in the present since so much of perceptions of beauty seem biologically predisposed).
I support #1 in the present, and some combination of #1 and #3 in the future, when we have more effective ways of changing people’s preferences.
It might also be possible in future to mimic the effect of options 1 and 2 by altering one’s own perception of who is beautiful and who isn’t. (For example, instead of handicapping beautiful people, I could get my brain reprogrammed to see as ugly the people others see as beautiful.) This is like #3 in that it’s about altering someone other than the beautiful/non-beautiful people themselves, but different in that one changes what one sees as beautiful instead of how much one cares about beauty.
Some would suggest this gives you all sorts of practical benefits.
With just a little elaboration on the relevant bias at work this would make a fantastic top level post. This insight in particular made me laugh:
Thanks for sharing your list Jennifer
If you’re interested in a few people’s theories about self deception (perhaps on a more philosophical level), including an entry by Tom Schelling (though it wasn’t about self deception as much), you might like The Multiple Self
Kathy Kolbe’s The Conative Connection might be a better view of style conflicts.
A summary
Thanks a lot for the link to CGT and Sprague-Grundy theory. It’s a beautiful area of math that I once knew in detail, but somehow managed to forget completely.
My way of saying thanks: take a look at Ford circles.
Great article. Thanks so much for linking to it. I interpreted the article to be about dealing with anxiety, though, not about learning skills from declarative knowledge. And yes, it’s relevant for social situations as well, especially:
And the courage to socialize incompetently is a huge part of what it means to have social skills.
I think it’s an article about not finding a way to deal with anxiety.
Wow. That linked article is killing me softly. I wish he had a general solution to that problem expressable in declarative knowledge—I’ve never played Go, and certainly don’t plan to now, because I know exactly what he’s talking about.
You don’t need to control others to get what you want out of an interaction. In fact, letting go of control is a key step. It also paradoxically increases your influence (in non-toxic environments.) Reading Morendil’s reply seven times is recommended. That was golden.
I do happen to meet that criteria, but there is more than one challenge that I (and most people to various degrees) had to overcome when starting conversations with random people, some of which required simple behavioral changes while some required fundamental changes in beliefs.
Is changing your beliefs a skill that you have developed? For example, did Juggler’s influence change the way you think about social dynamics? Do you have the ability to actively question and update your model of yourself and your environment based on introspection and self awareness? I’m not making a snide insult here. Developing that skill is central to how I overcame those difficulties and, in various guises, what many social skills and personal development gurus will recommend. It does involve asking ourselves questions that we really don’t want to hear.