I think I’ve figured out the problem here, and I’m curious to see if I’m right;
In essence, the issue is that people here on LW are very focused on content, while you seem very focused on tone.
An excruciatingly polite and carefully worded post which contains little more information than “X is bad” is simply much less valuable here than an all-caps angry “rant” which explains its reasoning succinctly and logically. Obviously we do value conversational etiquette here, but that is at best a secondary concern; it is much more important what you say than how you say it. Offensiveness of a statement is largely orthogonal to its truth value, so people looking for the truth shouldn’t be afraid to test offensive hypotheses.
I promise you, sincerely, that if you ever decide to post a substantive criticism of Libertarianism/Objectivism, or a defense of your own political views, that I will not upvote or downvote them based on anything other than their factual content and logical cohesion. I also believe, with good reason, that other LW posters will generally do the same.
Thank you for the polite tone and reasonable argument -I do think those things are important- but I disagree with your observation. I mostly notice that I am getting 0 benefit of the doubt from many of the people here. I start a thread offering criticism—people assume I am a troll. I offer hatred of gays as a politics-neutral example of something that’s clearly bad—people assume I am pushing a left wing agenda. I notice that even you seem to believe that my post was about libertarianism/conservatism being bad, even though I have said nothing of the sort.
I think a big part of it is culture clash: I am used to being able to reference things which I perceive as obviously true -such as global warming, evolution and so on- without needing to couch it in disclaimers. However here on Less Wrong, a considerable number of users are American, who are apparently offended by these things and assume I must be trying to troll for a reaction. Compare this with for example the James Randi forums, where it is considered perfectly acceptable to share a laugh about crazy people and politics in the US regardless of whether you are left- or right-wing, and without anyone supposing that you must have a political agenda because of it.
I am used to being able to reference things which I perceive as obviously true [..] without needing to couch it in disclaimers.
If something seems obviously true to you and someone disagrees, then either they don’t see the obvious truth (i.e. they’re “crazy”) or your views only seem obvious because they are the ones you are familiar with.
Most people throughout history have seen it as perfectly obvious that the sun revolves around the earth, that the world was put together intentionally by some deity or other, and that our standards of behavior could influence the timing and severity of natural disasters. Most people throughout history have also seen it as perfectly obvious that objects fall when you let go of them, that humans reproduce sexually, and that 2+2=4. The only way to distinguish which of our “obvious” beliefs are true and which are false is to try to examine them as objectively as possible, which is where rationality comes in.
Now some beliefs, like those of UFOlogists dowsers and most theistic religions, can be easily debunked by modern science and as such are not relevant to discuss unless new evidence for them emerges. In general, LW is pretty good about not giving these beliefs space; even the occasional bit of snakeoil you see has some fringe science explanation for why it might work.
Others beliefs, like those of environmentalists libertarians and racial realists, have a plausible scientific justification and cannot be dismissed out of hand; these ideas should be debated so that we can determine their truth value. But that doesn’t mean we need to pull punches either; that which can be destroyed by the truth should be, and that destruction goes a lot faster if we expose an idea to light rather than letting it sit unexamined.
As I said before, “[The o]ffensiveness of a statement is largely orthogonal to its truth value, so people looking for the truth shouldn’t be afraid to test offensive hypotheses.” If you see someone articulating a view which seems insane, finding out why they believe it and engaging it is the only path which will lead you to the truth in the long run.
I notice that you are perfectly happy to say that UFOs, dowsers and theistic religions can be debunked and should not be given credence. On the other hand, you say that political ideas have science behind them and should be debated. Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Or, and here is an alternative explanation: Are you perhaps unwilling to judge political ideologies based on the same standards as any other idea that you perceive to be factually wrong purely because you would insult some members of your community in the process? And if that is the case, how is your objection any different from saying that I shouldn’t call a belief in dowsing crazy, because some of the members of Less Wrong believe in dowsing?
(obvious disclaimer: Obviously I’m not saying that factually wrong political beliefs are limited to one “side” of the argument, etcetera etcetera etcetera)
I’d say religion is pretty solidly political, but I admit I did choose my examples a little poorly. I’m sorry if that has led to confusion because it seems this obscured my point.
Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Of course not. Marxism as an ideology, and most communist/socialist economic policy in practice, go against core principles of economics on which there is strong consensus. Most other advocated forms of theocracy have little theoretical merit either as they are based on easily disproved doctrines, and while they can have solid social organization their inability to adapt technologically leaves them in the dust in the long run. Other utopian societies like the Shakers are not viable as people who don’t reproduce will simply not pass on their culture. Examples abound, it is trivially easy to find them.
But most of the ideas you object to debating here don’t fall into that category. A realistic view of race or a belief in more limited government is supported by mainstream biology/psychometry and economics respectively, and thus shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. That was a big part of my point; your idea of what is obviously right or obviously wrong is not necessarily accurate, and calling people crazy for believing something without examining the factual basis of that belief is an epistemological mistake.
I hate to do this, but I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing. I also notice that the political ideology that you say I can’t dismiss is right wing. I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism (in extreme forms for the latter at least, before someone complains. There’s nothing wrong with moderate socialist policies either, as they work quite well in practice, despite what the US consensus seems to be).
I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing.
I’d be glad if I could foist theocracies on the left but sadly I think they probably fit better on the right.
I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism
Because communism is based on an economic theory which is directly contradicted by the modern economic consensus, and has consistently failed in practice, while the main contention against “Laissez Fair” capitalism from an economic side is where it ignores market failure (which according to mainstream economics happens due to unclear property rights, a major concern of libertarians to say the least).
Essentially, if the issue deals with settled science then the side with the science wins no contest. If there isn’t a consensus, or there is ambiguity with which side the science supports, then there is more than enough room for rational debate.
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though. Big-L libertarians at least, who in my experience base their views entirely on ideology, shouldn’t be given any more or less credence than Communists. Saying that everything will work out if everybody would just be nice to each other seems exactly as irrational to me as saying that everything will work out if only 95% of government tasks are eliminated so the free market can take care of everything.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
(I don’t think theocracy is necessarily left or right, but nevermind that point)
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though.
One of the things you’re going to have to get used to here if you want to stay is that the regulars here have generally given their views some serious thought. If you talk to a libertarian on LW, he will have read up on his Friedman, possibly some Hayek and von Mises too, not to mention having at least an undergraduate level understanding of economics. If you assume they’re using lowest-common-denominator arguments they will assume you are either ignorant of the actual facts of the matter or are being intentionally patronizing.
The same goes for any ideology, right or left; if people talk about it, it will be a fairly nuanced discussion and if you follow it seriously you’ll be up to your eyeballs in PubMed and Jstor papers for the next few hours if not actually buying books. I think that’s why you hardly see anyone advocating theistic religion, capital-c Communism or any other well-debunked ideology; they can’t put up the facts and end up getting downvoted out of existence.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
I guess it’s lucky I don’t then; people are just as capable of being irrational about right wing politics as they are about anything else under the sun. Politics brings out the ape in all of us, so it makes sense that there are so many stupid proponents of defensible ideologies.
But, as the local saying goes, ‘reversed stupidity is not intelligence.’ If the dumbest man in the world tells you the sky is blue, he’s not any less right for it. The only way to find out if an argument is right is to examine it for soundness and validity, and until you’ve actually judged it’s merits your opinions are by definition prejudicial.
FWIW, if by “troll” you mean someone who is deliberately looking to start up trouble rather than genuinely trying to engage with the community in some way, I don’t think you’re a troll. That said, you’re right that I have stopped giving you the benefit of the doubt more generally.
In general, I approach people with the assumption (A1) that they are seeking to understand and be understood, to learn from others and to be learned from. I often observe behavior that implies A1 is false, but I make an effort to categorize that behavior as noise rather than signal, both because I think that’s often true, and because interacting under A1 is more pleasant for me.
That’s roughly what I mean by benefit of the doubt, here: assuming A1.
With some people, I eventually drop that assumption. In your case, I stopped believing that you are seeking to understand or to learn; I started believing that you are only here to be understood and learned from.
This changes my interactions. For example, when someone says something I think is false, A1 leads me to explain why I think that is false, and what I think is true instead. Once I stopped assuming A1 in your case, there was no point to making such explanations… I no longer assume that you care what I think about it.
I don’t remember what caused me to drop A1 in your specific case. You’re far from the only person I’ve done this for, and it’s not like I keep records or anything.
In most cases, it’s a series of interactions (both with me and others) where the person seems to engage only with those points they can address while reinforcing their main point, while ignoring or evading or distorting points that would seem to weaken it.
I’m surprised to hear that I give the impression that I’m not willing to learn. As far as I know I have conceded points to others at many points, identified my own faults, and generally been as humble as I can muster. However, I find it interesting that you can’t remember what specifically I did wrong. I think this reinforces the idea that it’s something about my general tone that drives people up the walls. Several others have offered that I would get better support if I didn’t dance around issues and were more blunt about it. Perhaps it is my being careful around what I perceive to be a hot-button topic that is perceived as being disingenuous, and makes people so mad?
On the one hand, I find this idea interesting. On the other hand I can’t believe that a topic called “why republicans generally profess more incorrect viewpoints than democrats” would actually be well received at all, no matter how truthful or well-written.
I can’t believe that a topic called “why republicans generally profess more incorrect viewpoints than democrats” would actually be well received at all, no matter how truthful or well-written.
As a necessary condition, such post would have to contain a list of specific generally Republican beliefs and another list of generally Democrat beliefs. Then a summary of right and wrong points, and then some explanation of why one side lost more points than the other one.
I’m not saying that it would be enough to get the topic upvoted. But it is the minimum necessary to discuss the topic rationally.
This is the flavor of discussion LessWrong culture prefers. Saying “Republicans believe X, Y, Z. X, Y, Z is false. Therefore Republican beliefs are false. To compare, Democrats believe in Q, which is true.” could perhaps be acceptable in some context. Because it allows a debate about fact. -- Is it true that Republicans generally believe X? Is X really false? Is Q really true? Is Q a reasonable analogy for X in its role in given party’s belief-set? -- These things can perhaps be discussed reasonably. Or at least something interesting can be said about them.
You can say bluntly “X is false”. You can say bluntly “most of Republicans believe X”, although it would be better to also provide a hyperlink to an opinion poll or something. -- The problem is speaking bluntly about wide generalizations. The key is to be specific.
Criticism of Republicans is a smaller violation of local norms than making a general claim about unspecified things. I guess in your mind there are specific examples of beliefs that Republicans are wrong about. So say it. If you can’t say the specific things, then don’t say the generalization. It’s not because we don’t want to hear generalizations about Republicans; it’s because we don’t want to hear generalizations without examples regardless of the topic, but we are more sensitive about it in political topics, because there it happens too often.
Okay, this explanation is not completely correct… some readers would object against political discussion of any kind. The important thing is to realize that you have violated the local norms in aspects more grave than merely criticizing a specific political party. And you seem to be blind about this.
I notice that everyone who disagrees with me here seems to be supremely confident that I am wrong, that Less Wrong doesn’t have the flaws I see, and that I must just be blind because I can’t see how wrong I am. I wonder how many have actually stopped and considered whether or not I might have a point, and I wonder how many are so confident that I am wrong merely because everyone else seems so confident that I am wrong.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue? That is to say, how sure are you that I would have received the same reaction if I instead had written about things I thought democrats do wrong? I am asking this because I never see someone couch their criticism of left-wing viewpoints by saying “well of course republicans have their faults too”. Did you ever see anyone here say that communism doesn’t work, and then get in trouble for it because they weren’t specific enough?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that left-wing people are magically better people, or some nonsense like that. I am saying that people naturally tend to be more defensive and insecure about beliefs that are ill-supported by evidence. You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect. They would say that you are just blind and that you can’t see that you are biased etcetera etcetera. The difference being that communism is already considered crazy here, just as religion is considered crazy, so it is okay to criticize those things by Less Wrong norms.
Again, not saying that all beliefs held by republicans are crazy, or all Democratic beliefs are right, etcetera etcetera obvious disclaimer. I don’t actually want to have a discussion about what most republicans believe, since that isn’t helpful: I just want to be able to say “X is false”.
I actually agree with most of your post though. Believe it or not I am not some kind of crazy extreme moderate whose views you can never change. In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly. It didn’t receive any less hate after editing it though, so I don’t think it helped. I suspect that at least a large part of it is that people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation. I think this is what makes writing a post that doesn’t offend anybody is so hard.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue?
I think that “The Non-Libertarian FAQ”, although not published in LW, is popular here. If we all could debate politics on this level, we probably wouldn’t need the norm against discussing politics.
I don’t have a similar example for Republicans, but I guess most of them would be offended by reading LW opinions about religion.
You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect.
I haven’t yet met a communist who would react to criticizing their beliefs by saying: “please give me some specific evidence”. They usually react exactly the opposite way; the experimental evidence is the last think they would want to discuss; it’s the great idea that matters and there is no need to learn from history, because next time it will magically work perfectly. And those are the more sane among them; the less sane will say that all evidence is just American propaganda, including the things I have seen with my own eyes as a child. (There are many communists in my country, so it is not difficult to meet enough samples.)
In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly.
Without saying which beliefs specifically you mean, this is not an improvement. Okay, I guess it is a small move towards politeness, but not towards fact-based discussion.
people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation.
This is true in general, but this is not the main problem with your article. If you think it is, your model of LessWrong is incorrect.
Perhaps it is my being careful around what I perceive to be a hot-button topic that is perceived as being disingenuous, and makes people so mad?
Perhaps. I find it unlikely, personally, but I’m hardly an expert.
I find this idea interesting.
Do you? Why?
I can’t believe that a topic called “why republicans generally profess more incorrect viewpoints than democrats” would actually be well received at all, no matter how truthful or well-written.
I agree that a topic titled that would be poorly received, and would have to be exceptionally well constructed to be considered valuable. I think there are people who could write such a post, were they motivated to… Yvain comes to mind… but I don’t think I could, and I don’t think you could.
An excruciatingly polite and carefully worded post which contains little more information than “X is bad” is simply much less valuable here than an all-caps angry “rant” which explains its reasoning succinctly and logically.
Sure. But that’s a false dichotomy: an excruciatingly polite and carefully worded post which explains its reasoning succinctly and logically is also possible and would be even better.
Agreed, though I would also endorse establishing a culture where a post that explains its reasoning succinctly and logically without devoting additional care to being excruciatingly polite would be considered better than all of the above.
I think my following sentence handled that nicely; etiquette is a concern, but a secondary one.
If your goal is good epistemology, avoiding offense should always lose to making accurate statements when the two conflict. That is almost tautologically true, yet still useful to keep in mind since the two often are at odds with one another.
I think I’ve figured out the problem here, and I’m curious to see if I’m right;
In essence, the issue is that people here on LW are very focused on content, while you seem very focused on tone.
An excruciatingly polite and carefully worded post which contains little more information than “X is bad” is simply much less valuable here than an all-caps angry “rant” which explains its reasoning succinctly and logically. Obviously we do value conversational etiquette here, but that is at best a secondary concern; it is much more important what you say than how you say it. Offensiveness of a statement is largely orthogonal to its truth value, so people looking for the truth shouldn’t be afraid to test offensive hypotheses.
I promise you, sincerely, that if you ever decide to post a substantive criticism of Libertarianism/Objectivism, or a defense of your own political views, that I will not upvote or downvote them based on anything other than their factual content and logical cohesion. I also believe, with good reason, that other LW posters will generally do the same.
Thank you for the polite tone and reasonable argument -I do think those things are important- but I disagree with your observation. I mostly notice that I am getting 0 benefit of the doubt from many of the people here. I start a thread offering criticism—people assume I am a troll. I offer hatred of gays as a politics-neutral example of something that’s clearly bad—people assume I am pushing a left wing agenda. I notice that even you seem to believe that my post was about libertarianism/conservatism being bad, even though I have said nothing of the sort.
I think a big part of it is culture clash: I am used to being able to reference things which I perceive as obviously true -such as global warming, evolution and so on- without needing to couch it in disclaimers. However here on Less Wrong, a considerable number of users are American, who are apparently offended by these things and assume I must be trying to troll for a reaction. Compare this with for example the James Randi forums, where it is considered perfectly acceptable to share a laugh about crazy people and politics in the US regardless of whether you are left- or right-wing, and without anyone supposing that you must have a political agenda because of it.
If something seems obviously true to you and someone disagrees, then either they don’t see the obvious truth (i.e. they’re “crazy”) or your views only seem obvious because they are the ones you are familiar with.
Most people throughout history have seen it as perfectly obvious that the sun revolves around the earth, that the world was put together intentionally by some deity or other, and that our standards of behavior could influence the timing and severity of natural disasters. Most people throughout history have also seen it as perfectly obvious that objects fall when you let go of them, that humans reproduce sexually, and that 2+2=4. The only way to distinguish which of our “obvious” beliefs are true and which are false is to try to examine them as objectively as possible, which is where rationality comes in.
Now some beliefs, like those of UFOlogists dowsers and most theistic religions, can be easily debunked by modern science and as such are not relevant to discuss unless new evidence for them emerges. In general, LW is pretty good about not giving these beliefs space; even the occasional bit of snakeoil you see has some fringe science explanation for why it might work.
Others beliefs, like those of environmentalists libertarians and racial realists, have a plausible scientific justification and cannot be dismissed out of hand; these ideas should be debated so that we can determine their truth value. But that doesn’t mean we need to pull punches either; that which can be destroyed by the truth should be, and that destruction goes a lot faster if we expose an idea to light rather than letting it sit unexamined.
As I said before, “[The o]ffensiveness of a statement is largely orthogonal to its truth value, so people looking for the truth shouldn’t be afraid to test offensive hypotheses.” If you see someone articulating a view which seems insane, finding out why they believe it and engaging it is the only path which will lead you to the truth in the long run.
I notice that you are perfectly happy to say that UFOs, dowsers and theistic religions can be debunked and should not be given credence. On the other hand, you say that political ideas have science behind them and should be debated. Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Or, and here is an alternative explanation: Are you perhaps unwilling to judge political ideologies based on the same standards as any other idea that you perceive to be factually wrong purely because you would insult some members of your community in the process? And if that is the case, how is your objection any different from saying that I shouldn’t call a belief in dowsing crazy, because some of the members of Less Wrong believe in dowsing?
(obvious disclaimer: Obviously I’m not saying that factually wrong political beliefs are limited to one “side” of the argument, etcetera etcetera etcetera)
I’d say religion is pretty solidly political, but I admit I did choose my examples a little poorly. I’m sorry if that has led to confusion because it seems this obscured my point.
Of course not. Marxism as an ideology, and most communist/socialist economic policy in practice, go against core principles of economics on which there is strong consensus. Most other advocated forms of theocracy have little theoretical merit either as they are based on easily disproved doctrines, and while they can have solid social organization their inability to adapt technologically leaves them in the dust in the long run. Other utopian societies like the Shakers are not viable as people who don’t reproduce will simply not pass on their culture. Examples abound, it is trivially easy to find them.
But most of the ideas you object to debating here don’t fall into that category. A realistic view of race or a belief in more limited government is supported by mainstream biology/psychometry and economics respectively, and thus shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. That was a big part of my point; your idea of what is obviously right or obviously wrong is not necessarily accurate, and calling people crazy for believing something without examining the factual basis of that belief is an epistemological mistake.
I hate to do this, but I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing. I also notice that the political ideology that you say I can’t dismiss is right wing. I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism (in extreme forms for the latter at least, before someone complains. There’s nothing wrong with moderate socialist policies either, as they work quite well in practice, despite what the US consensus seems to be).
I’d be glad if I could foist theocracies on the left but sadly I think they probably fit better on the right.
Because communism is based on an economic theory which is directly contradicted by the modern economic consensus, and has consistently failed in practice, while the main contention against “Laissez Fair” capitalism from an economic side is where it ignores market failure (which according to mainstream economics happens due to unclear property rights, a major concern of libertarians to say the least).
Essentially, if the issue deals with settled science then the side with the science wins no contest. If there isn’t a consensus, or there is ambiguity with which side the science supports, then there is more than enough room for rational debate.
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though. Big-L libertarians at least, who in my experience base their views entirely on ideology, shouldn’t be given any more or less credence than Communists. Saying that everything will work out if everybody would just be nice to each other seems exactly as irrational to me as saying that everything will work out if only 95% of government tasks are eliminated so the free market can take care of everything.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
(I don’t think theocracy is necessarily left or right, but nevermind that point)
One of the things you’re going to have to get used to here if you want to stay is that the regulars here have generally given their views some serious thought. If you talk to a libertarian on LW, he will have read up on his Friedman, possibly some Hayek and von Mises too, not to mention having at least an undergraduate level understanding of economics. If you assume they’re using lowest-common-denominator arguments they will assume you are either ignorant of the actual facts of the matter or are being intentionally patronizing.
The same goes for any ideology, right or left; if people talk about it, it will be a fairly nuanced discussion and if you follow it seriously you’ll be up to your eyeballs in PubMed and Jstor papers for the next few hours if not actually buying books. I think that’s why you hardly see anyone advocating theistic religion, capital-c Communism or any other well-debunked ideology; they can’t put up the facts and end up getting downvoted out of existence.
I guess it’s lucky I don’t then; people are just as capable of being irrational about right wing politics as they are about anything else under the sun. Politics brings out the ape in all of us, so it makes sense that there are so many stupid proponents of defensible ideologies.
But, as the local saying goes, ‘reversed stupidity is not intelligence.’ If the dumbest man in the world tells you the sky is blue, he’s not any less right for it. The only way to find out if an argument is right is to examine it for soundness and validity, and until you’ve actually judged it’s merits your opinions are by definition prejudicial.
FWIW, if by “troll” you mean someone who is deliberately looking to start up trouble rather than genuinely trying to engage with the community in some way, I don’t think you’re a troll.
That said, you’re right that I have stopped giving you the benefit of the doubt more generally.
I’m curious: What was your doubt, and in what way did you stop giving me the benefit of it? In what way did I fail to meet your expectations?
In general, I approach people with the assumption (A1) that they are seeking to understand and be understood, to learn from others and to be learned from. I often observe behavior that implies A1 is false, but I make an effort to categorize that behavior as noise rather than signal, both because I think that’s often true, and because interacting under A1 is more pleasant for me.
That’s roughly what I mean by benefit of the doubt, here: assuming A1.
With some people, I eventually drop that assumption. In your case, I stopped believing that you are seeking to understand or to learn; I started believing that you are only here to be understood and learned from.
This changes my interactions. For example, when someone says something I think is false, A1 leads me to explain why I think that is false, and what I think is true instead. Once I stopped assuming A1 in your case, there was no point to making such explanations… I no longer assume that you care what I think about it.
I don’t remember what caused me to drop A1 in your specific case. You’re far from the only person I’ve done this for, and it’s not like I keep records or anything.
In most cases, it’s a series of interactions (both with me and others) where the person seems to engage only with those points they can address while reinforcing their main point, while ignoring or evading or distorting points that would seem to weaken it.
I’m surprised to hear that I give the impression that I’m not willing to learn. As far as I know I have conceded points to others at many points, identified my own faults, and generally been as humble as I can muster. However, I find it interesting that you can’t remember what specifically I did wrong. I think this reinforces the idea that it’s something about my general tone that drives people up the walls. Several others have offered that I would get better support if I didn’t dance around issues and were more blunt about it. Perhaps it is my being careful around what I perceive to be a hot-button topic that is perceived as being disingenuous, and makes people so mad?
On the one hand, I find this idea interesting. On the other hand I can’t believe that a topic called “why republicans generally profess more incorrect viewpoints than democrats” would actually be well received at all, no matter how truthful or well-written.
As a necessary condition, such post would have to contain a list of specific generally Republican beliefs and another list of generally Democrat beliefs. Then a summary of right and wrong points, and then some explanation of why one side lost more points than the other one.
I’m not saying that it would be enough to get the topic upvoted. But it is the minimum necessary to discuss the topic rationally.
This is the flavor of discussion LessWrong culture prefers. Saying “Republicans believe X, Y, Z. X, Y, Z is false. Therefore Republican beliefs are false. To compare, Democrats believe in Q, which is true.” could perhaps be acceptable in some context. Because it allows a debate about fact. -- Is it true that Republicans generally believe X? Is X really false? Is Q really true? Is Q a reasonable analogy for X in its role in given party’s belief-set? -- These things can perhaps be discussed reasonably. Or at least something interesting can be said about them.
You can say bluntly “X is false”. You can say bluntly “most of Republicans believe X”, although it would be better to also provide a hyperlink to an opinion poll or something. -- The problem is speaking bluntly about wide generalizations. The key is to be specific.
Criticism of Republicans is a smaller violation of local norms than making a general claim about unspecified things. I guess in your mind there are specific examples of beliefs that Republicans are wrong about. So say it. If you can’t say the specific things, then don’t say the generalization. It’s not because we don’t want to hear generalizations about Republicans; it’s because we don’t want to hear generalizations without examples regardless of the topic, but we are more sensitive about it in political topics, because there it happens too often.
Okay, this explanation is not completely correct… some readers would object against political discussion of any kind. The important thing is to realize that you have violated the local norms in aspects more grave than merely criticizing a specific political party. And you seem to be blind about this.
I notice that everyone who disagrees with me here seems to be supremely confident that I am wrong, that Less Wrong doesn’t have the flaws I see, and that I must just be blind because I can’t see how wrong I am. I wonder how many have actually stopped and considered whether or not I might have a point, and I wonder how many are so confident that I am wrong merely because everyone else seems so confident that I am wrong.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue? That is to say, how sure are you that I would have received the same reaction if I instead had written about things I thought democrats do wrong? I am asking this because I never see someone couch their criticism of left-wing viewpoints by saying “well of course republicans have their faults too”. Did you ever see anyone here say that communism doesn’t work, and then get in trouble for it because they weren’t specific enough?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that left-wing people are magically better people, or some nonsense like that. I am saying that people naturally tend to be more defensive and insecure about beliefs that are ill-supported by evidence. You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect. They would say that you are just blind and that you can’t see that you are biased etcetera etcetera. The difference being that communism is already considered crazy here, just as religion is considered crazy, so it is okay to criticize those things by Less Wrong norms.
Again, not saying that all beliefs held by republicans are crazy, or all Democratic beliefs are right, etcetera etcetera obvious disclaimer. I don’t actually want to have a discussion about what most republicans believe, since that isn’t helpful: I just want to be able to say “X is false”.
I actually agree with most of your post though. Believe it or not I am not some kind of crazy extreme moderate whose views you can never change. In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly. It didn’t receive any less hate after editing it though, so I don’t think it helped. I suspect that at least a large part of it is that people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation. I think this is what makes writing a post that doesn’t offend anybody is so hard.
I think that “The Non-Libertarian FAQ”, although not published in LW, is popular here. If we all could debate politics on this level, we probably wouldn’t need the norm against discussing politics.
I don’t have a similar example for Republicans, but I guess most of them would be offended by reading LW opinions about religion.
I haven’t yet met a communist who would react to criticizing their beliefs by saying: “please give me some specific evidence”. They usually react exactly the opposite way; the experimental evidence is the last think they would want to discuss; it’s the great idea that matters and there is no need to learn from history, because next time it will magically work perfectly. And those are the more sane among them; the less sane will say that all evidence is just American propaganda, including the things I have seen with my own eyes as a child. (There are many communists in my country, so it is not difficult to meet enough samples.)
Without saying which beliefs specifically you mean, this is not an improvement. Okay, I guess it is a small move towards politeness, but not towards fact-based discussion.
This is true in general, but this is not the main problem with your article. If you think it is, your model of LessWrong is incorrect.
Perhaps. I find it unlikely, personally, but I’m hardly an expert.
Do you? Why?
I agree that a topic titled that would be poorly received, and would have to be exceptionally well constructed to be considered valuable. I think there are people who could write such a post, were they motivated to… Yvain comes to mind… but I don’t think I could, and I don’t think you could.
Sure. But that’s a false dichotomy: an excruciatingly polite and carefully worded post which explains its reasoning succinctly and logically is also possible and would be even better.
Agreed, though I would also endorse establishing a culture where a post that explains its reasoning succinctly and logically without devoting additional care to being excruciatingly polite would be considered better than all of the above.
I think my following sentence handled that nicely; etiquette is a concern, but a secondary one.
If your goal is good epistemology, avoiding offense should always lose to making accurate statements when the two conflict. That is almost tautologically true, yet still useful to keep in mind since the two often are at odds with one another.