I notice that you are perfectly happy to say that UFOs, dowsers and theistic religions can be debunked and should not be given credence. On the other hand, you say that political ideas have science behind them and should be debated. Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Or, and here is an alternative explanation: Are you perhaps unwilling to judge political ideologies based on the same standards as any other idea that you perceive to be factually wrong purely because you would insult some members of your community in the process? And if that is the case, how is your objection any different from saying that I shouldn’t call a belief in dowsing crazy, because some of the members of Less Wrong believe in dowsing?
(obvious disclaimer: Obviously I’m not saying that factually wrong political beliefs are limited to one “side” of the argument, etcetera etcetera etcetera)
I’d say religion is pretty solidly political, but I admit I did choose my examples a little poorly. I’m sorry if that has led to confusion because it seems this obscured my point.
Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Of course not. Marxism as an ideology, and most communist/socialist economic policy in practice, go against core principles of economics on which there is strong consensus. Most other advocated forms of theocracy have little theoretical merit either as they are based on easily disproved doctrines, and while they can have solid social organization their inability to adapt technologically leaves them in the dust in the long run. Other utopian societies like the Shakers are not viable as people who don’t reproduce will simply not pass on their culture. Examples abound, it is trivially easy to find them.
But most of the ideas you object to debating here don’t fall into that category. A realistic view of race or a belief in more limited government is supported by mainstream biology/psychometry and economics respectively, and thus shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. That was a big part of my point; your idea of what is obviously right or obviously wrong is not necessarily accurate, and calling people crazy for believing something without examining the factual basis of that belief is an epistemological mistake.
I hate to do this, but I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing. I also notice that the political ideology that you say I can’t dismiss is right wing. I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism (in extreme forms for the latter at least, before someone complains. There’s nothing wrong with moderate socialist policies either, as they work quite well in practice, despite what the US consensus seems to be).
I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing.
I’d be glad if I could foist theocracies on the left but sadly I think they probably fit better on the right.
I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism
Because communism is based on an economic theory which is directly contradicted by the modern economic consensus, and has consistently failed in practice, while the main contention against “Laissez Fair” capitalism from an economic side is where it ignores market failure (which according to mainstream economics happens due to unclear property rights, a major concern of libertarians to say the least).
Essentially, if the issue deals with settled science then the side with the science wins no contest. If there isn’t a consensus, or there is ambiguity with which side the science supports, then there is more than enough room for rational debate.
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though. Big-L libertarians at least, who in my experience base their views entirely on ideology, shouldn’t be given any more or less credence than Communists. Saying that everything will work out if everybody would just be nice to each other seems exactly as irrational to me as saying that everything will work out if only 95% of government tasks are eliminated so the free market can take care of everything.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
(I don’t think theocracy is necessarily left or right, but nevermind that point)
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though.
One of the things you’re going to have to get used to here if you want to stay is that the regulars here have generally given their views some serious thought. If you talk to a libertarian on LW, he will have read up on his Friedman, possibly some Hayek and von Mises too, not to mention having at least an undergraduate level understanding of economics. If you assume they’re using lowest-common-denominator arguments they will assume you are either ignorant of the actual facts of the matter or are being intentionally patronizing.
The same goes for any ideology, right or left; if people talk about it, it will be a fairly nuanced discussion and if you follow it seriously you’ll be up to your eyeballs in PubMed and Jstor papers for the next few hours if not actually buying books. I think that’s why you hardly see anyone advocating theistic religion, capital-c Communism or any other well-debunked ideology; they can’t put up the facts and end up getting downvoted out of existence.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
I guess it’s lucky I don’t then; people are just as capable of being irrational about right wing politics as they are about anything else under the sun. Politics brings out the ape in all of us, so it makes sense that there are so many stupid proponents of defensible ideologies.
But, as the local saying goes, ‘reversed stupidity is not intelligence.’ If the dumbest man in the world tells you the sky is blue, he’s not any less right for it. The only way to find out if an argument is right is to examine it for soundness and validity, and until you’ve actually judged it’s merits your opinions are by definition prejudicial.
I notice that you are perfectly happy to say that UFOs, dowsers and theistic religions can be debunked and should not be given credence. On the other hand, you say that political ideas have science behind them and should be debated. Do you really believe that there is zero overlap between “political ideologies” and “Beliefs that have no science behind them and should be given no credence”? Do you really believe we live in that perfectly convenient world?
Or, and here is an alternative explanation: Are you perhaps unwilling to judge political ideologies based on the same standards as any other idea that you perceive to be factually wrong purely because you would insult some members of your community in the process? And if that is the case, how is your objection any different from saying that I shouldn’t call a belief in dowsing crazy, because some of the members of Less Wrong believe in dowsing?
(obvious disclaimer: Obviously I’m not saying that factually wrong political beliefs are limited to one “side” of the argument, etcetera etcetera etcetera)
I’d say religion is pretty solidly political, but I admit I did choose my examples a little poorly. I’m sorry if that has led to confusion because it seems this obscured my point.
Of course not. Marxism as an ideology, and most communist/socialist economic policy in practice, go against core principles of economics on which there is strong consensus. Most other advocated forms of theocracy have little theoretical merit either as they are based on easily disproved doctrines, and while they can have solid social organization their inability to adapt technologically leaves them in the dust in the long run. Other utopian societies like the Shakers are not viable as people who don’t reproduce will simply not pass on their culture. Examples abound, it is trivially easy to find them.
But most of the ideas you object to debating here don’t fall into that category. A realistic view of race or a belief in more limited government is supported by mainstream biology/psychometry and economics respectively, and thus shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. That was a big part of my point; your idea of what is obviously right or obviously wrong is not necessarily accurate, and calling people crazy for believing something without examining the factual basis of that belief is an epistemological mistake.
I hate to do this, but I can’t help but notice that the political ideologies that you say have no credence are left wing. I also notice that the political ideology that you say I can’t dismiss is right wing. I do not see why it should be allowed to call communism unfounded but not to say the same of objectivism, or Laisez fair capitalism (in extreme forms for the latter at least, before someone complains. There’s nothing wrong with moderate socialist policies either, as they work quite well in practice, despite what the US consensus seems to be).
I’d be glad if I could foist theocracies on the left but sadly I think they probably fit better on the right.
Because communism is based on an economic theory which is directly contradicted by the modern economic consensus, and has consistently failed in practice, while the main contention against “Laissez Fair” capitalism from an economic side is where it ignores market failure (which according to mainstream economics happens due to unclear property rights, a major concern of libertarians to say the least).
Essentially, if the issue deals with settled science then the side with the science wins no contest. If there isn’t a consensus, or there is ambiguity with which side the science supports, then there is more than enough room for rational debate.
You have to admit that the oft-held view that the market will solve all problems is a clear example of an irrational viewpoint though. Big-L libertarians at least, who in my experience base their views entirely on ideology, shouldn’t be given any more or less credence than Communists. Saying that everything will work out if everybody would just be nice to each other seems exactly as irrational to me as saying that everything will work out if only 95% of government tasks are eliminated so the free market can take care of everything.
If you disagree, then it really seems to me that you have some strange double standard, where right-wing ideology is somehow subject to different rules than other forms of ideology.
(I don’t think theocracy is necessarily left or right, but nevermind that point)
One of the things you’re going to have to get used to here if you want to stay is that the regulars here have generally given their views some serious thought. If you talk to a libertarian on LW, he will have read up on his Friedman, possibly some Hayek and von Mises too, not to mention having at least an undergraduate level understanding of economics. If you assume they’re using lowest-common-denominator arguments they will assume you are either ignorant of the actual facts of the matter or are being intentionally patronizing.
The same goes for any ideology, right or left; if people talk about it, it will be a fairly nuanced discussion and if you follow it seriously you’ll be up to your eyeballs in PubMed and Jstor papers for the next few hours if not actually buying books. I think that’s why you hardly see anyone advocating theistic religion, capital-c Communism or any other well-debunked ideology; they can’t put up the facts and end up getting downvoted out of existence.
I guess it’s lucky I don’t then; people are just as capable of being irrational about right wing politics as they are about anything else under the sun. Politics brings out the ape in all of us, so it makes sense that there are so many stupid proponents of defensible ideologies.
But, as the local saying goes, ‘reversed stupidity is not intelligence.’ If the dumbest man in the world tells you the sky is blue, he’s not any less right for it. The only way to find out if an argument is right is to examine it for soundness and validity, and until you’ve actually judged it’s merits your opinions are by definition prejudicial.