I can’t believe that a topic called “why republicans generally profess more incorrect viewpoints than democrats” would actually be well received at all, no matter how truthful or well-written.
As a necessary condition, such post would have to contain a list of specific generally Republican beliefs and another list of generally Democrat beliefs. Then a summary of right and wrong points, and then some explanation of why one side lost more points than the other one.
I’m not saying that it would be enough to get the topic upvoted. But it is the minimum necessary to discuss the topic rationally.
This is the flavor of discussion LessWrong culture prefers. Saying “Republicans believe X, Y, Z. X, Y, Z is false. Therefore Republican beliefs are false. To compare, Democrats believe in Q, which is true.” could perhaps be acceptable in some context. Because it allows a debate about fact. -- Is it true that Republicans generally believe X? Is X really false? Is Q really true? Is Q a reasonable analogy for X in its role in given party’s belief-set? -- These things can perhaps be discussed reasonably. Or at least something interesting can be said about them.
You can say bluntly “X is false”. You can say bluntly “most of Republicans believe X”, although it would be better to also provide a hyperlink to an opinion poll or something. -- The problem is speaking bluntly about wide generalizations. The key is to be specific.
Criticism of Republicans is a smaller violation of local norms than making a general claim about unspecified things. I guess in your mind there are specific examples of beliefs that Republicans are wrong about. So say it. If you can’t say the specific things, then don’t say the generalization. It’s not because we don’t want to hear generalizations about Republicans; it’s because we don’t want to hear generalizations without examples regardless of the topic, but we are more sensitive about it in political topics, because there it happens too often.
Okay, this explanation is not completely correct… some readers would object against political discussion of any kind. The important thing is to realize that you have violated the local norms in aspects more grave than merely criticizing a specific political party. And you seem to be blind about this.
I notice that everyone who disagrees with me here seems to be supremely confident that I am wrong, that Less Wrong doesn’t have the flaws I see, and that I must just be blind because I can’t see how wrong I am. I wonder how many have actually stopped and considered whether or not I might have a point, and I wonder how many are so confident that I am wrong merely because everyone else seems so confident that I am wrong.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue? That is to say, how sure are you that I would have received the same reaction if I instead had written about things I thought democrats do wrong? I am asking this because I never see someone couch their criticism of left-wing viewpoints by saying “well of course republicans have their faults too”. Did you ever see anyone here say that communism doesn’t work, and then get in trouble for it because they weren’t specific enough?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that left-wing people are magically better people, or some nonsense like that. I am saying that people naturally tend to be more defensive and insecure about beliefs that are ill-supported by evidence. You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect. They would say that you are just blind and that you can’t see that you are biased etcetera etcetera. The difference being that communism is already considered crazy here, just as religion is considered crazy, so it is okay to criticize those things by Less Wrong norms.
Again, not saying that all beliefs held by republicans are crazy, or all Democratic beliefs are right, etcetera etcetera obvious disclaimer. I don’t actually want to have a discussion about what most republicans believe, since that isn’t helpful: I just want to be able to say “X is false”.
I actually agree with most of your post though. Believe it or not I am not some kind of crazy extreme moderate whose views you can never change. In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly. It didn’t receive any less hate after editing it though, so I don’t think it helped. I suspect that at least a large part of it is that people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation. I think this is what makes writing a post that doesn’t offend anybody is so hard.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue?
I think that “The Non-Libertarian FAQ”, although not published in LW, is popular here. If we all could debate politics on this level, we probably wouldn’t need the norm against discussing politics.
I don’t have a similar example for Republicans, but I guess most of them would be offended by reading LW opinions about religion.
You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect.
I haven’t yet met a communist who would react to criticizing their beliefs by saying: “please give me some specific evidence”. They usually react exactly the opposite way; the experimental evidence is the last think they would want to discuss; it’s the great idea that matters and there is no need to learn from history, because next time it will magically work perfectly. And those are the more sane among them; the less sane will say that all evidence is just American propaganda, including the things I have seen with my own eyes as a child. (There are many communists in my country, so it is not difficult to meet enough samples.)
In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly.
Without saying which beliefs specifically you mean, this is not an improvement. Okay, I guess it is a small move towards politeness, but not towards fact-based discussion.
people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation.
This is true in general, but this is not the main problem with your article. If you think it is, your model of LessWrong is incorrect.
As a necessary condition, such post would have to contain a list of specific generally Republican beliefs and another list of generally Democrat beliefs. Then a summary of right and wrong points, and then some explanation of why one side lost more points than the other one.
I’m not saying that it would be enough to get the topic upvoted. But it is the minimum necessary to discuss the topic rationally.
This is the flavor of discussion LessWrong culture prefers. Saying “Republicans believe X, Y, Z. X, Y, Z is false. Therefore Republican beliefs are false. To compare, Democrats believe in Q, which is true.” could perhaps be acceptable in some context. Because it allows a debate about fact. -- Is it true that Republicans generally believe X? Is X really false? Is Q really true? Is Q a reasonable analogy for X in its role in given party’s belief-set? -- These things can perhaps be discussed reasonably. Or at least something interesting can be said about them.
You can say bluntly “X is false”. You can say bluntly “most of Republicans believe X”, although it would be better to also provide a hyperlink to an opinion poll or something. -- The problem is speaking bluntly about wide generalizations. The key is to be specific.
Criticism of Republicans is a smaller violation of local norms than making a general claim about unspecified things. I guess in your mind there are specific examples of beliefs that Republicans are wrong about. So say it. If you can’t say the specific things, then don’t say the generalization. It’s not because we don’t want to hear generalizations about Republicans; it’s because we don’t want to hear generalizations without examples regardless of the topic, but we are more sensitive about it in political topics, because there it happens too often.
Okay, this explanation is not completely correct… some readers would object against political discussion of any kind. The important thing is to realize that you have violated the local norms in aspects more grave than merely criticizing a specific political party. And you seem to be blind about this.
I notice that everyone who disagrees with me here seems to be supremely confident that I am wrong, that Less Wrong doesn’t have the flaws I see, and that I must just be blind because I can’t see how wrong I am. I wonder how many have actually stopped and considered whether or not I might have a point, and I wonder how many are so confident that I am wrong merely because everyone else seems so confident that I am wrong.
How sure are you really that criticism of republicans and libertarians is not the issue? That is to say, how sure are you that I would have received the same reaction if I instead had written about things I thought democrats do wrong? I am asking this because I never see someone couch their criticism of left-wing viewpoints by saying “well of course republicans have their faults too”. Did you ever see anyone here say that communism doesn’t work, and then get in trouble for it because they weren’t specific enough?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that left-wing people are magically better people, or some nonsense like that. I am saying that people naturally tend to be more defensive and insecure about beliefs that are ill-supported by evidence. You would in fact receive the same reaction if you told a communist that their beliefs are factually incorrect. They would say that you are just blind and that you can’t see that you are biased etcetera etcetera. The difference being that communism is already considered crazy here, just as religion is considered crazy, so it is okay to criticize those things by Less Wrong norms.
Again, not saying that all beliefs held by republicans are crazy, or all Democratic beliefs are right, etcetera etcetera obvious disclaimer. I don’t actually want to have a discussion about what most republicans believe, since that isn’t helpful: I just want to be able to say “X is false”.
I actually agree with most of your post though. Believe it or not I am not some kind of crazy extreme moderate whose views you can never change. In fact I agree that my biggest fault was that in the OP, I said that the other party is “kind of crazy” instead of “Holds beliefs that are kind of crazy” and edited it accordingly. It didn’t receive any less hate after editing it though, so I don’t think it helped. I suspect that at least a large part of it is that people generally enjoy being offended. It gives you that nice feeling of righteous indignation. I think this is what makes writing a post that doesn’t offend anybody is so hard.
I think that “The Non-Libertarian FAQ”, although not published in LW, is popular here. If we all could debate politics on this level, we probably wouldn’t need the norm against discussing politics.
I don’t have a similar example for Republicans, but I guess most of them would be offended by reading LW opinions about religion.
I haven’t yet met a communist who would react to criticizing their beliefs by saying: “please give me some specific evidence”. They usually react exactly the opposite way; the experimental evidence is the last think they would want to discuss; it’s the great idea that matters and there is no need to learn from history, because next time it will magically work perfectly. And those are the more sane among them; the less sane will say that all evidence is just American propaganda, including the things I have seen with my own eyes as a child. (There are many communists in my country, so it is not difficult to meet enough samples.)
Without saying which beliefs specifically you mean, this is not an improvement. Okay, I guess it is a small move towards politeness, but not towards fact-based discussion.
This is true in general, but this is not the main problem with your article. If you think it is, your model of LessWrong is incorrect.