Hm. Some thoughts, since I don’t know if it is that simple...
I shared your sentiment (about personal trainers possessing about 1500 words of total knowledge) until I injured myself several months ago (cervical discs). I lifted weights fairly consistently for more than a decade with high intensity, using principles related to the ones you describe. I’m confident there are other factors—genetics, poor posture, non-optimal sleep position—that helped cause my injury (which led to an immediate 65-75% loss of pushing strength and dramatic atrophy on my right side), but I suspect my consistent vigorous weight training was a key culprit.
Generally, you’re failing (in my view) to point out a physical trainer’s role and value in teaching correct technique, which can alleviate risk of injury. You mention form a few times, but I think it is fair to say there is a significant difference between watching a Youtube video and having someone (who is trained) demonstrate the proper form in person, providing feedback and adjustment based on their observation.
Free weights are generally better than machine exercises
What does this mean? Newer machines are designed to limit risk of injury—promoting proper form and safe range of motion through their design—and I see very little basis to say free weights are “better”. (It’s a common adage in strength training circles, and I’m aware of the advantages of free weights vs. machines, but machine exercises are just fine—if not “better”—for basic strength training.)
•Optimal for looks
•Optimal for time
•Optimal for effort
•Optimal for performance
•Optimal for longevity
I like the distinctions you’ve made here, though I think the advice that follows comes nowhere close to encompassing the knowledge of good personal trainers.
Using your advice, you could optimize for the first four, but longevity would be a huge question mark (if by ‘longevity’, you mean consistent health and wellness as a result of your exercise routine).
I used to scoff at the idea of personal trainers. From what I could see, they were overpaid, personal cheerleaders who rattled off common sens-isms. Now, I’ve got an appointment for a cortisone injection in my spine scheduled for this week and a referral to physical therapy, both measures to try and help my strength return.
I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a bit more to personal trainers’ knowledge of “Optimal Exercise” than this. (Or maybe you are just talking to lousy personal trainers?)
Personal trainers, on average, teach poor form IME. Their customer base doesn’t know the difference. I am somewhat dubious of your conclusion about weightlifting causing you to have spine health problems. People who exercise vigorously on average have far fewer back problems than sedentary people, not more.
Machine exercises isolate a particular muscle group and do not strengthen the supplementary muscles that go into using that muscle for any dynamic action (real life). You do not want your arms able to bench 200lbs but your rotator cuff muscles being the same as a sedentary person. Machine weights being “safer” is something endlessly repeated but for which I have never seen evidence. Base rate of injuries in weightlifting are obscenely low, even with the poor form that is common. And that’s all on top of the issue that free weights get you stronger faster.
I am somewhat dubious of your conclusion about weightlifting causing you to have spine health problems. People who exercise vigorously on average have far fewer back problems than sedentary people, not more.
I’ve consistently trained with relatively heavy weight. From my reading, while disc degeneration is common with aging, and genetics, posture, sleep position, nutrition, etc. can play a role, disc injuries (bulging/herniated discs) that cause symptomatic neuropathies like mine can be caused by the stress of repetitive movements under the strain of heavy weights.
Machine exercises isolate a particular muscle group and do not strengthen the supplementary muscles that go into using that muscle for any dynamic action (real life). You do not want your arms able to bench 200lbs but your rotator cuff muscles being the same as a sedentary person.
Sure. Makes sense. I think this is valid...
Machine weights being “safer” is something endlessly repeated but for which I have never seen evidence.
Someone who is smarter than I could suggest some more specifics, I’ll say only I think there are lots of variables at play in such comparisions.
Base rate of injuries in weightlifting are obscenely low, even with the poor form that is common.
Again, I’d not necessarily argue there is a significant risk of traumatic injury while weightlifting. Rather, as I said in my last response, optimizing for longevity is something I now believe (vs. before I was injured) is a bit more complicated for those who have very ambitious performance optimization goals.
In my case, I was training to break a powerlifting bench press record. In order to optimize my performance and reach that goal (360 lbs at 181lb body weight), I now believe I sacrificed my medium term, and likely, long term health.
I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to consider the human body may not be evolved to support the heavy stresses that many powerlifters subject themselves to (even if they have perfect form) over time.
And that’s all on top of the issue that free weights get you stronger faster.
Agreed.
Anyway, I think it’s interesting. I used to feel almost the exact same way you did. I’ve spoken the last line of your orginal post many times to friends of mine who asked for training advice.
I’ve (very reluctantly) upgraded my beliefs lately due to this injury. Though I would agree there is a large chunk of personal trainers—as is the case with any profession—who provide very little value.
I think it is peculiar you’d advocate weightlifting shoes to new weightlifters as a low cost, high return investment, while telling them to look on Youtube for tips on their form. I’d argue even middling to lowly personal trainer would provide much more value to a beginner than specilized shoes.
So you feel like if you’d been working with a personal trainer you might not have gotten injured? Or you feel like your personal trainer has helped you rehabilitate your injury faster than you would have otherwise? Or both?
I think sound form, principles, etc. could have helped me avoid injury. A good personal trainer might have suggested that while I was doing a good job optimizing for performance in the short term, my vigorous workouts were likely to hurt my desire to optimize my longevity.
I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to consider the human body may not be evolved to support the heavy stresses that many powerlifters subject themselves to (even if they have perfect form) over time.
I believe human beings (mind and body both) have not evolved to handle a culture which values bodies for appearance and highly specific performance, and which values minds for toughness—which translates as the willingness to ignore “don’t do that!” signals.
IME people take to high bar squatting pretty well with minimal instruction. Really the only issue people run into is the ankle/lower back problem. Get them in shoes and their form is good enough that I am confident they won’t hurt themselves. About the youtube vids, yeah, I am not really satisfied with the guides on squatting (other exercise videos are fine). I might write a guide to highbar squatting.
In my quite limited experience, the form for high bar squatting is easy to figure out, but people often fail to maintain proper form when lifting heavy weight, and they often don’t realize it. I personally have done this several times, where I thought I had good form and then my workout partner would point out that I rounded my lower back at the bottom, or my knees buckled inward, or I used my lower back to lift the weight part of the way up. Unless you are exceptionally mindful of your own body, I think there’s a lot of value in lifting weights with a partner who can critique your form.
Why do you think you would not have injured yourself if you had a personal trainer? I agree that form is very important, and that the ideal way to learn it is to have a knowledgeable person there with you to critique your form. I also agree that the OP did not stress enough the importance of good form. However, if a workout partner knows what good form is, what value does a personal trainer add that a knowledgeable workout partner does not?
Why do you think you would not have injured yourself if you had a personal trainer?
I mentioned personal trainers because the OP literally and specifically talked about their knowledge here:
“If you’ve made it this far, congratulations; you are now as knowledgeable as any personal trainer I’ve spoken with.”
Further, as I said, I now wonder if optimizing for performance can often be inherently bad to the pursuit of optimizing for longevity.
The human body is not necessarily evolved for modern weight training. Monster powerlifters (optimizing for performance) and bodybuilders (optimizing for looks) are basically using body hacking techniques. It isn’t the slightest bit surprising to me that over time, that can lead to accumulated stress injuries in more vulnerable parts of the body.
You can—and I have—pretty well optimize for performance for certain lifts. I am now curious as to whether that was a leading cause of sub-optimal results in my long term health. (Lots of things in nature are like this… give and take, trade-offs)
A knowledgeable person(al trainer) might be able to provide feedback and warnings to balance your optimization. If someone (for example) would have said “Benching heavy twice a week will help you add 10% to your max in the next 4 months… but it will also wear out your shoulders quickly,” Then I could’ve made a more infomed choice.
As it is, “common sensers” like the OP (I was one of them) typically make weight lifting very simple. They recommend a simple formula and de-value personal trainers.
I’ve seen this advice “work” for many people who have gotten strong and fit. Maybe they’ll deal with injuries later? Don’t know. Lots of variables.
As of now, I’m re-thinking my view of “Optimal Exercise”.
However, if a workout partner knows what good form is, what value does a personal trainer add that a knowledgeable workout partner does not?
Very little. More personal focus than a training buddy, likely. The key is in the word “knowledgeable”. I’ve had training buddies who were very strong and fit who may end up with long term problems like me. They helped me reach my shorter goals, though...
Do you mean this literally?
Yes.
Hm. Some thoughts, since I don’t know if it is that simple...
I shared your sentiment (about personal trainers possessing about 1500 words of total knowledge) until I injured myself several months ago (cervical discs). I lifted weights fairly consistently for more than a decade with high intensity, using principles related to the ones you describe. I’m confident there are other factors—genetics, poor posture, non-optimal sleep position—that helped cause my injury (which led to an immediate 65-75% loss of pushing strength and dramatic atrophy on my right side), but I suspect my consistent vigorous weight training was a key culprit.
Generally, you’re failing (in my view) to point out a physical trainer’s role and value in teaching correct technique, which can alleviate risk of injury. You mention form a few times, but I think it is fair to say there is a significant difference between watching a Youtube video and having someone (who is trained) demonstrate the proper form in person, providing feedback and adjustment based on their observation.
What does this mean? Newer machines are designed to limit risk of injury—promoting proper form and safe range of motion through their design—and I see very little basis to say free weights are “better”. (It’s a common adage in strength training circles, and I’m aware of the advantages of free weights vs. machines, but machine exercises are just fine—if not “better”—for basic strength training.)
I like the distinctions you’ve made here, though I think the advice that follows comes nowhere close to encompassing the knowledge of good personal trainers.
Using your advice, you could optimize for the first four, but longevity would be a huge question mark (if by ‘longevity’, you mean consistent health and wellness as a result of your exercise routine).
I used to scoff at the idea of personal trainers. From what I could see, they were overpaid, personal cheerleaders who rattled off common sens-isms. Now, I’ve got an appointment for a cortisone injection in my spine scheduled for this week and a referral to physical therapy, both measures to try and help my strength return.
I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a bit more to personal trainers’ knowledge of “Optimal Exercise” than this. (Or maybe you are just talking to lousy personal trainers?)
Personal trainers, on average, teach poor form IME. Their customer base doesn’t know the difference. I am somewhat dubious of your conclusion about weightlifting causing you to have spine health problems. People who exercise vigorously on average have far fewer back problems than sedentary people, not more.
Machine exercises isolate a particular muscle group and do not strengthen the supplementary muscles that go into using that muscle for any dynamic action (real life). You do not want your arms able to bench 200lbs but your rotator cuff muscles being the same as a sedentary person. Machine weights being “safer” is something endlessly repeated but for which I have never seen evidence. Base rate of injuries in weightlifting are obscenely low, even with the poor form that is common. And that’s all on top of the issue that free weights get you stronger faster.
I’ve consistently trained with relatively heavy weight. From my reading, while disc degeneration is common with aging, and genetics, posture, sleep position, nutrition, etc. can play a role, disc injuries (bulging/herniated discs) that cause symptomatic neuropathies like mine can be caused by the stress of repetitive movements under the strain of heavy weights.
Sure. Makes sense. I think this is valid...
Someone who is smarter than I could suggest some more specifics, I’ll say only I think there are lots of variables at play in such comparisions.
Again, I’d not necessarily argue there is a significant risk of traumatic injury while weightlifting. Rather, as I said in my last response, optimizing for longevity is something I now believe (vs. before I was injured) is a bit more complicated for those who have very ambitious performance optimization goals.
In my case, I was training to break a powerlifting bench press record. In order to optimize my performance and reach that goal (360 lbs at 181lb body weight), I now believe I sacrificed my medium term, and likely, long term health.
I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to consider the human body may not be evolved to support the heavy stresses that many powerlifters subject themselves to (even if they have perfect form) over time.
Agreed.
Anyway, I think it’s interesting. I used to feel almost the exact same way you did. I’ve spoken the last line of your orginal post many times to friends of mine who asked for training advice.
I’ve (very reluctantly) upgraded my beliefs lately due to this injury. Though I would agree there is a large chunk of personal trainers—as is the case with any profession—who provide very little value.
I think it is peculiar you’d advocate weightlifting shoes to new weightlifters as a low cost, high return investment, while telling them to look on Youtube for tips on their form. I’d argue even middling to lowly personal trainer would provide much more value to a beginner than specilized shoes.
So you feel like if you’d been working with a personal trainer you might not have gotten injured? Or you feel like your personal trainer has helped you rehabilitate your injury faster than you would have otherwise? Or both?
I think sound form, principles, etc. could have helped me avoid injury. A good personal trainer might have suggested that while I was doing a good job optimizing for performance in the short term, my vigorous workouts were likely to hurt my desire to optimize my longevity.
I’ve been refered to a physical therapist now.
I believe human beings (mind and body both) have not evolved to handle a culture which values bodies for appearance and highly specific performance, and which values minds for toughness—which translates as the willingness to ignore “don’t do that!” signals.
IME people take to high bar squatting pretty well with minimal instruction. Really the only issue people run into is the ankle/lower back problem. Get them in shoes and their form is good enough that I am confident they won’t hurt themselves. About the youtube vids, yeah, I am not really satisfied with the guides on squatting (other exercise videos are fine). I might write a guide to highbar squatting.
In my quite limited experience, the form for high bar squatting is easy to figure out, but people often fail to maintain proper form when lifting heavy weight, and they often don’t realize it. I personally have done this several times, where I thought I had good form and then my workout partner would point out that I rounded my lower back at the bottom, or my knees buckled inward, or I used my lower back to lift the weight part of the way up. Unless you are exceptionally mindful of your own body, I think there’s a lot of value in lifting weights with a partner who can critique your form.
I agree, and this is most important at the very beginning, since that is when you have not developed your proprioception yet.
Why do you think you would not have injured yourself if you had a personal trainer? I agree that form is very important, and that the ideal way to learn it is to have a knowledgeable person there with you to critique your form. I also agree that the OP did not stress enough the importance of good form. However, if a workout partner knows what good form is, what value does a personal trainer add that a knowledgeable workout partner does not?
I mentioned personal trainers because the OP literally and specifically talked about their knowledge here:
Further, as I said, I now wonder if optimizing for performance can often be inherently bad to the pursuit of optimizing for longevity.
The human body is not necessarily evolved for modern weight training. Monster powerlifters (optimizing for performance) and bodybuilders (optimizing for looks) are basically using body hacking techniques. It isn’t the slightest bit surprising to me that over time, that can lead to accumulated stress injuries in more vulnerable parts of the body.
You can—and I have—pretty well optimize for performance for certain lifts. I am now curious as to whether that was a leading cause of sub-optimal results in my long term health. (Lots of things in nature are like this… give and take, trade-offs)
A knowledgeable person(al trainer) might be able to provide feedback and warnings to balance your optimization. If someone (for example) would have said “Benching heavy twice a week will help you add 10% to your max in the next 4 months… but it will also wear out your shoulders quickly,” Then I could’ve made a more infomed choice.
As it is, “common sensers” like the OP (I was one of them) typically make weight lifting very simple. They recommend a simple formula and de-value personal trainers.
I’ve seen this advice “work” for many people who have gotten strong and fit. Maybe they’ll deal with injuries later? Don’t know. Lots of variables.
As of now, I’m re-thinking my view of “Optimal Exercise”.
Very little. More personal focus than a training buddy, likely. The key is in the word “knowledgeable”. I’ve had training buddies who were very strong and fit who may end up with long term problems like me. They helped me reach my shorter goals, though...
Thoughts about finding a good personal trainer?
Not really, no.