We don’t know that the brain would be ‘rended’. McGonagall is not torn in half as she transfigures into a cat, and we don’t see a transfigured rock exploding into rock dust when it untransfigures. And even if they did, well, Harry could’ve transmuted the brain into diamond of the same volume or something.
Yes, but one could create a non-free transfiguration just for that (e.g., transform anything into ring such that the de-transfigured object is still viable). I’m not 100% sure but I think the main part of the process for inventing partial transfiguration took less than 6 hours, so another insight is plausible.
hm…
That requires inventing a spell. which harry asked Quirrel about and received what looks to us like an unhelpful reply. (But since Quirrel knows interdict-protected secrets, and we don’t, I cannot rule out the possibility that what he told harry somehow IS the secret...)
Plus, If Harry manages to start inventing spells...he’s pretty much won. so, yeah, ringmione IS a bit risky, but less so than letting someone shove her body into the ground and letting bacteria go to work.
I don’t mean inventing something completely new, just modifying transfiguration. He already did that with partial transfiguration, he might be able to modify it differently, e.g., by inventing a version that returns everything to where it was when dispelled, regardless of how the transfigured object changed.
Since magic—and transfiguration in particular—doesn’t seem to care much about conservation of entropy, it’s not obvious why that should be impossible. In fact, it’s actually surprising that transfiguration does work the way it does. I think most people would not expect the dangers of transfiguration—McGonagall spends a lot of time on that, and since the shape of the original does not affect the transfigured shape, it seems intuitive that the transfigured shape shouldn’t affect the original—and magic seems to care about what users expect—note how nobody had to warn the students about physics when they learn riding brooms.
Those are still classed as charms, complete with wand motions and incantations. I...suppose it’s plausible that Harry will figure out how to invent a new transfiguration charm before any other type of charm, but....I just wouldn’t expect that to last for very long, once he hacks deep enough into magic to start inventing spells. for the purposes of ringmione, it’s negligible. Broom-spells are cast long before the rider gets on.
“most people would not expect the dangers of transfiguration”-well Rowling certainly didn’t...but harry had to go pretty deep, conceptually, to invent partial transfiguration; shallow expectations don’t seem to have much of an effect on transfiguration. it may only have been changeable by the original inventors of transfiguration in the MoR verse.
...You think if nobody warned about the dangers of transfiguration there wouldn’t be any issues? I actually doubt that, Harry had to go pretty deep before overcoming the whole-object limitation. whatever the real rules for transfiguration are, harry came pre
Broom-spells are cast long before the rider gets on.
Yes, you’re right, the analogy was not correct. But my point is that it appears that the broom spell does what’s intuitive, and the transfiguration spell apparently does not.
think if nobody warned about the dangers of transfiguration there wouldn’t be any issues?
No, in MoRverse at least people would die. But that’s my point, it’s weird that you need dire warnings that transfiguration doesn’t work as you might expect, but pretty much every other spell we’ve seen does not require such warnings, even if very powerful (e.g., time-turners; note that Harry was terrified, and Minerva acted less concerned than if she gave him a bike).
shallow expectations don’t seem to have much of an effect on transfiguration
Exactly. Why do they seem to have an effect in other cases?
For example, a teleport spell will also have to compensate for the difference in velocity between the departure and destination. But the shallow expectation is that you’ll arrive stationary, and it works as you expect. Also, it takes with you whatever you’re wearing, even in a pocket, and presumably even if you don’t know you have it on you, but doesn’t take the carpet you’re standing on (and so do time-turners).
Aresto Momentum itself looks very safe on first view, and nobody warns about, say, casting it while inside a moving vehicle (depending on what it actually means, which if you think hard about it is not very clear, it should be very dangerous to cast it on objects inside or outside the vehicle).
Time turners don’t drop you in outer space. Brooms partly ignore inertia. Tooth-growing charms don’t break your jaw. Accio doesn’t seem to kill people or destroy property, even if you summon an object from very far away, and doesn’t work on buildings. Fold-space objects have limited capacity, but one can enter a space-folding trunk while holding a space-folding pouch without needing to think about the possible consequences. Floo powder protects you not only from the burning, but also from suffocation and CO poisoning (you keep your head in the fire to use it for communication).
Even accidents are somewhat intuitive: an extra cat hair in Polyjuice can give you cat attributes instead of blowing up or not working at all. Varying pronunciation varies the kind of bats you can summon, but all variations are benign (e.g., it makes green-glowing bats instead of X-ray–glowing bats).
It’s not obvious why the same does not happen with transfiguration. (One might expect that if you break the transfigured object, the original might be broken, but movement of molecules in what appears to be a solid is not intuitive.)
What’s even weirder is that if you think even deeper about it, it should be much worse. For example, if you transform something into a liquid, the original should probably disintegrate completely. But Minerva’s desk looks normal, even though almost 10% of the pig (the blood) is completely shuffled. (Also, if you can make a pig, and you can transfigure a person (dangerously), you should be able to transfigure a dozen stones into a dozen copies of yourself. The copies are doomed, of course, but it’s still weird nobody ever made a temporary army of themselves.)
Arresto Momentum itself looks very safe on first view, and nobody warns about, say, casting it while inside a moving vehicle
Every single casting of Arresto Momentum ever was performed on a moving planet, which resulted in no issues. It’s possible that casting from inside of a moving vehicle to outside of it might result in problems, but I strongly doubt that it’ll do anything which would seem bizarre from the caster’s frame of reference.
Of course. This suggests that the spell uses something as a reference. If it’s the caster, then casting Aresto Momentum on a tree while riding the TGV will cause the tree to suddenly start moving at a few hundred km/s. If it’s the planet, casting it on an object inside the train will have the same effect. Wizards might not use fast vehicles a lot, but even the Hogwarts train and the flying brooms are fast enough to be very dangerous with heavy objects.
(That said, I don’t think there are any examples, in canon or MoR, of the spell being used for anything other than falling objects. If it only does that, then it’s much less dangerous in normal life, especially in a society without high-speed elevators, and it makes a bit more sense, though the name is even sillier.)
This is a great way of bringing a celestial body, e.g. Venus, on a transfer orbit which will put it in the same orbit as earth, but on the other side of the sun, as you’ll only need to move the caster, not the planet itself. Such orbits are fairly stable on a human timescale, and colonization (plus terraforming) may begin then. Aiming the spell might be a little difficult, but is certainly doable (as amassed spell-casting will also do, there’s no problem if several spells hit).
You could probably make Arresto Momentum relatively safe by having it choose between the caster’s frame of reference and the earth’s (at the caster’s position) based on whichever results in the spell doing less work. It’s still dangerous, obviously casting it on someone else’s moving vehicle would be a bad move, but it avoids making anything go “zoom” in a privileged frame of reference.
hm. I’ve increased my estimate that Harry could further hack into transfiguration, but I still find it very unlikely that he’s managed to do so for RingMione. (simply not enough time). ”Even accidents are somewhat intuitive: an extra cat hair in Polyjuice can give you cat attributes instead of blowing up or not working at all.”
Even THAT”S rather dangerous in the MoR universe, while in cannon it was mostly funny. And...I think MoR potions don’t blow up anywhere near as often as Cannon potions...though maybe that’s just because Slytherins and Gryfinndors aren’t throwing things into each others cauldron while Snape turns a blind eye. maybe.
Those are still classed as charms, complete with wand motions and incantations.
Yeah, creating a separate spell (like whatever Animagi do) would be creating a new charm.
But he could just modify the normal transfiguration. He casts partial transfiguration the same way as the normal one, it’s just how he thinks about it that changes.
Transfigure Hermione into part of a ring, and a marshmallow into the rest of it. That might not even require partial transfiguration, if you make them fit together like puzzle pieces.
Transfigure only part of Hermione into a ring?
The brain, presumably.
That would be worse, as he would physically rend the brain when it popped into existence. He could have it somewhere else, though.
We don’t know that the brain would be ‘rended’. McGonagall is not torn in half as she transfigures into a cat, and we don’t see a transfigured rock exploding into rock dust when it untransfigures. And even if they did, well, Harry could’ve transmuted the brain into diamond of the same volume or something.
Animagus is not FREE transfiguration. it is a million times safer, but also more limited.
Yes, but one could create a non-free transfiguration just for that (e.g., transform anything into ring such that the de-transfigured object is still viable). I’m not 100% sure but I think the main part of the process for inventing partial transfiguration took less than 6 hours, so another insight is plausible.
hm… That requires inventing a spell. which harry asked Quirrel about and received what looks to us like an unhelpful reply. (But since Quirrel knows interdict-protected secrets, and we don’t, I cannot rule out the possibility that what he told harry somehow IS the secret...)
Plus, If Harry manages to start inventing spells...he’s pretty much won.
so, yeah, ringmione IS a bit risky, but less so than letting someone shove her body into the ground and letting bacteria go to work.
I don’t mean inventing something completely new, just modifying transfiguration. He already did that with partial transfiguration, he might be able to modify it differently, e.g., by inventing a version that returns everything to where it was when dispelled, regardless of how the transfigured object changed.
Since magic—and transfiguration in particular—doesn’t seem to care much about conservation of entropy, it’s not obvious why that should be impossible. In fact, it’s actually surprising that transfiguration does work the way it does. I think most people would not expect the dangers of transfiguration—McGonagall spends a lot of time on that, and since the shape of the original does not affect the transfigured shape, it seems intuitive that the transfigured shape shouldn’t affect the original—and magic seems to care about what users expect—note how nobody had to warn the students about physics when they learn riding brooms.
Those are still classed as charms, complete with wand motions and incantations. I...suppose it’s plausible that Harry will figure out how to invent a new transfiguration charm before any other type of charm, but....I just wouldn’t expect that to last for very long, once he hacks deep enough into magic to start inventing spells. for the purposes of ringmione, it’s negligible.
Broom-spells are cast long before the rider gets on.
“most people would not expect the dangers of transfiguration”-well Rowling certainly didn’t...but harry had to go pretty deep, conceptually, to invent partial transfiguration; shallow expectations don’t seem to have much of an effect on transfiguration. it may only have been changeable by the original inventors of transfiguration in the MoR verse.
...You think if nobody warned about the dangers of transfiguration there wouldn’t be any issues? I actually doubt that, Harry had to go pretty deep before overcoming the whole-object limitation. whatever the real rules for transfiguration are, harry came pre
Yes, you’re right, the analogy was not correct. But my point is that it appears that the broom spell does what’s intuitive, and the transfiguration spell apparently does not.
No, in MoRverse at least people would die. But that’s my point, it’s weird that you need dire warnings that transfiguration doesn’t work as you might expect, but pretty much every other spell we’ve seen does not require such warnings, even if very powerful (e.g., time-turners; note that Harry was terrified, and Minerva acted less concerned than if she gave him a bike).
Exactly. Why do they seem to have an effect in other cases?
For example, a teleport spell will also have to compensate for the difference in velocity between the departure and destination. But the shallow expectation is that you’ll arrive stationary, and it works as you expect. Also, it takes with you whatever you’re wearing, even in a pocket, and presumably even if you don’t know you have it on you, but doesn’t take the carpet you’re standing on (and so do time-turners).
Aresto Momentum itself looks very safe on first view, and nobody warns about, say, casting it while inside a moving vehicle (depending on what it actually means, which if you think hard about it is not very clear, it should be very dangerous to cast it on objects inside or outside the vehicle).
Time turners don’t drop you in outer space. Brooms partly ignore inertia. Tooth-growing charms don’t break your jaw. Accio doesn’t seem to kill people or destroy property, even if you summon an object from very far away, and doesn’t work on buildings. Fold-space objects have limited capacity, but one can enter a space-folding trunk while holding a space-folding pouch without needing to think about the possible consequences. Floo powder protects you not only from the burning, but also from suffocation and CO poisoning (you keep your head in the fire to use it for communication).
Even accidents are somewhat intuitive: an extra cat hair in Polyjuice can give you cat attributes instead of blowing up or not working at all. Varying pronunciation varies the kind of bats you can summon, but all variations are benign (e.g., it makes green-glowing bats instead of X-ray–glowing bats).
It’s not obvious why the same does not happen with transfiguration. (One might expect that if you break the transfigured object, the original might be broken, but movement of molecules in what appears to be a solid is not intuitive.)
What’s even weirder is that if you think even deeper about it, it should be much worse. For example, if you transform something into a liquid, the original should probably disintegrate completely. But Minerva’s desk looks normal, even though almost 10% of the pig (the blood) is completely shuffled. (Also, if you can make a pig, and you can transfigure a person (dangerously), you should be able to transfigure a dozen stones into a dozen copies of yourself. The copies are doomed, of course, but it’s still weird nobody ever made a temporary army of themselves.)
Every single casting of Arresto Momentum ever was performed on a moving planet, which resulted in no issues. It’s possible that casting from inside of a moving vehicle to outside of it might result in problems, but I strongly doubt that it’ll do anything which would seem bizarre from the caster’s frame of reference.
Of course. This suggests that the spell uses something as a reference. If it’s the caster, then casting Aresto Momentum on a tree while riding the TGV will cause the tree to suddenly start moving at a few hundred km/s. If it’s the planet, casting it on an object inside the train will have the same effect. Wizards might not use fast vehicles a lot, but even the Hogwarts train and the flying brooms are fast enough to be very dangerous with heavy objects.
(That said, I don’t think there are any examples, in canon or MoR, of the spell being used for anything other than falling objects. If it only does that, then it’s much less dangerous in normal life, especially in a society without high-speed elevators, and it makes a bit more sense, though the name is even sillier.)
This is a great way of bringing a celestial body, e.g. Venus, on a transfer orbit which will put it in the same orbit as earth, but on the other side of the sun, as you’ll only need to move the caster, not the planet itself. Such orbits are fairly stable on a human timescale, and colonization (plus terraforming) may begin then. Aiming the spell might be a little difficult, but is certainly doable (as amassed spell-casting will also do, there’s no problem if several spells hit).
You could probably make Arresto Momentum relatively safe by having it choose between the caster’s frame of reference and the earth’s (at the caster’s position) based on whichever results in the spell doing less work. It’s still dangerous, obviously casting it on someone else’s moving vehicle would be a bad move, but it avoids making anything go “zoom” in a privileged frame of reference.
Eh, the spell probably just reads your mind and does whatever you actually want :-)
hm. I’ve increased my estimate that Harry could further hack into transfiguration, but I still find it very unlikely that he’s managed to do so for RingMione. (simply not enough time).
”Even accidents are somewhat intuitive: an extra cat hair in Polyjuice can give you cat attributes instead of blowing up or not working at all.”
Even THAT”S rather dangerous in the MoR universe, while in cannon it was mostly funny. And...I think MoR potions don’t blow up anywhere near as often as Cannon potions...though maybe that’s just because Slytherins and Gryfinndors aren’t throwing things into each others cauldron while Snape turns a blind eye. maybe.
edit: hm.
To be fair, blowing up is probably the intended purpose of Cannon Potions.
Yeah, creating a separate spell (like whatever Animagi do) would be creating a new charm.
But he could just modify the normal transfiguration. He casts partial transfiguration the same way as the normal one, it’s just how he thinks about it that changes.
I mean, untransfiguring the brain while it overlaps with a solid object.
Transfigure Hermione into part of a ring, and a marshmallow into the rest of it. That might not even require partial transfiguration, if you make them fit together like puzzle pieces.