A mind teaser for the stream-of-consciousness folk. Let’s say one day at 6pm Omega predicts your physical state at 8pm and creates your copy with the state of mind identical to what it predicts for 8pm. At 9pm in kills the original you. Did your consciousness just jump back in time? When did that happen?
Not sure who the “stream-of-consciousness folk” are, but I don’t see any more problem with a timeless stream (we’re all timeless folk, I assume) jumping backward than sideways or forward.
Did your consciousness just jump back in time? When did that happen?
To be consistent with the ‘stream’ metaphor it would seem that you must say it jumped back at 8pm. It is not too much of a stretch for a metaphorical stream to diverge into two, where one branch can be transported back in time and the other end some time later. I’m not sure if ‘jump’ is the ideal terminology for the transition. Either way, the whole ‘stream-of-consciousness’ idea seems to be stretched beyond whatever usefulness it may have had.
In the stream metaphor, the consciousness still didn’t jump backwards in actual time. Its stream of experience included an apparent jump in time, but that’s just because its beliefs suddenly became out of sync with reality: it believed that 2 hours’ worth of things had happened, but they hadn’t.
This isn’t a shortcoming of the stream model. It’s Omega’s fault for messing with your brain :-) For instance, Omega isn’t needed: I can do the job myself. I may not be able to correctly predict you for two hours into the future, but I can just invent two hours’ history full of ridiculous things happening and edit that false memory into your brain. The end result is the same: you remember experiencing two hours that didn’t happen, and then a backwards jump in time.
It’s no surprise that if I edit your memories, then you might remember something that contradicts a stream model, because you’re remembering things that did not in fact happen.
In the stream metaphor, the consciousness still didn’t jump backwards in actual time. Its stream of experience included an apparent jump in time, but that’s just because its beliefs suddenly became out of sync with reality: it believed that 2 hours’ worth of things had happened, but they hadn’t.
I don’t agree. That is, you describe actual reality accurately but if I am to consider consciousness a stream then I consider this consciousness to have jumped back in time. I assert that the stream of consciousness to have travelled in time to exactly the same extent that a teleported consciousness can be said to have travelled in space. Also quite close to the extent that a guy walking down a street, moving ordinarily in time and space can be stationary in time and space can be considered to have a stream-of-consciousness and all for similar reasons.
It’s no surprise that if I edit your memories, then you might remember something that contradicts a stream model
They don’t contradict a stream model. They’re just weird. Stuff with Omega in it usually is. ‘Stream-of-consciousness’ is a map, not the territory. If I have the right scale on a map I can draw a thousand light year line in seconds. From there back in time is just math. I see no reason splitting a stream in two and one part jumping back in time contradicts the model.
This is just wordplay. We both agree no material or causative thing jumped backwards in time.
Sure, if you define a stream of consciousness that way it can be said to have moved backwards in time, but that’s just because we’re overextending the metaphor. I could equally say that if I predict (or record) all of a consciousness’ successive states, and then simulate them in reverse order, then that consciousness has genuine Merlin sickness.
This is just wordplay. We both agree no material or causative thing jumped backwards in time.
Absolutely. Wordplay seems to be extent of Vladmir’s question, at least as far as I am interested in it.
Sure, if you define a stream of consciousness that way it can be said to have moved backwards in time, but that’s just because we’re overextending the metaphor. I could equally say that if I predict (or record) all of a consciousness’ successive states, and then simulate them in reverse order, then that consciousness has genuine Merlin sickness.
Another curious question. That would be a stream of consciousness flowing back in time. Merlin sickness also has the symptom of living backwards in time. But I don’t think it follows that the reverse simulation is an example of Merlin sickness. Whatever the mechanism is behind Merlin’s reverse life it appeared to result in him being able to operate quite effectively in a forward flowing universe. At least, he usually seems to get it right by the end of the story.
Your consciousness (the cloned one of the two) experiences a jump back in time, but the universe history it observes between 6 and 8 for the second time diverges from what it observed the first time, because it itself now acts differently.
There’s no more an actual backward jump in time than there would be in case Omega just implanted (accurate, predicted) memories of 6 through 8 pm in your brain at 6pm, without any duplications.
A mind teaser for the stream-of-consciousness folk. Let’s say one day at 6pm Omega predicts your physical state at 8pm and creates your copy with the state of mind identical to what it predicts for 8pm. At 9pm in kills the original you. Did your consciousness just jump back in time? When did that happen?
Not sure who the “stream-of-consciousness folk” are, but I don’t see any more problem with a timeless stream (we’re all timeless folk, I assume) jumping backward than sideways or forward.
To be consistent with the ‘stream’ metaphor it would seem that you must say it jumped back at 8pm. It is not too much of a stretch for a metaphorical stream to diverge into two, where one branch can be transported back in time and the other end some time later. I’m not sure if ‘jump’ is the ideal terminology for the transition. Either way, the whole ‘stream-of-consciousness’ idea seems to be stretched beyond whatever usefulness it may have had.
In the stream metaphor, the consciousness still didn’t jump backwards in actual time. Its stream of experience included an apparent jump in time, but that’s just because its beliefs suddenly became out of sync with reality: it believed that 2 hours’ worth of things had happened, but they hadn’t.
This isn’t a shortcoming of the stream model. It’s Omega’s fault for messing with your brain :-) For instance, Omega isn’t needed: I can do the job myself. I may not be able to correctly predict you for two hours into the future, but I can just invent two hours’ history full of ridiculous things happening and edit that false memory into your brain. The end result is the same: you remember experiencing two hours that didn’t happen, and then a backwards jump in time.
It’s no surprise that if I edit your memories, then you might remember something that contradicts a stream model, because you’re remembering things that did not in fact happen.
I don’t agree. That is, you describe actual reality accurately but if I am to consider consciousness a stream then I consider this consciousness to have jumped back in time. I assert that the stream of consciousness to have travelled in time to exactly the same extent that a teleported consciousness can be said to have travelled in space. Also quite close to the extent that a guy walking down a street, moving ordinarily in time and space can be stationary in time and space can be considered to have a stream-of-consciousness and all for similar reasons.
They don’t contradict a stream model. They’re just weird. Stuff with Omega in it usually is. ‘Stream-of-consciousness’ is a map, not the territory. If I have the right scale on a map I can draw a thousand light year line in seconds. From there back in time is just math. I see no reason splitting a stream in two and one part jumping back in time contradicts the model.
This is just wordplay. We both agree no material or causative thing jumped backwards in time.
Sure, if you define a stream of consciousness that way it can be said to have moved backwards in time, but that’s just because we’re overextending the metaphor. I could equally say that if I predict (or record) all of a consciousness’ successive states, and then simulate them in reverse order, then that consciousness has genuine Merlin sickness.
Absolutely. Wordplay seems to be extent of Vladmir’s question, at least as far as I am interested in it.
Another curious question. That would be a stream of consciousness flowing back in time. Merlin sickness also has the symptom of living backwards in time. But I don’t think it follows that the reverse simulation is an example of Merlin sickness. Whatever the mechanism is behind Merlin’s reverse life it appeared to result in him being able to operate quite effectively in a forward flowing universe. At least, he usually seems to get it right by the end of the story.
Your consciousness (the cloned one of the two) experiences a jump back in time, but the universe history it observes between 6 and 8 for the second time diverges from what it observed the first time, because it itself now acts differently.
There’s no more an actual backward jump in time than there would be in case Omega just implanted (accurate, predicted) memories of 6 through 8 pm in your brain at 6pm, without any duplications.