Skills and tribes are certainly different things, I’m not sure why are they opposed things? We should keep track the distinction and at the same time continue building a beneficial tribe. I agree that in terms of terminology, “rationalist” is a terrible name for “member of the LessWrong-ish community” and we should use something else (e.g. LessWronger).
They are opposed in the sense that using one in place of the other causes trouble. For example, insisting on meticulous observation of skills would be annoying and sometimes counterproductive in a tribe, and letting tribal dynamics dictate how skills are developed would corrode quality.
A tribe shouldn’t insist on a meticulous observation of skills, broadly speaking, but it should impose norms on e.g. which rhetorical moves are encouraged/discouraged in a discussion, and it should create positive incentives for the meticulous observation of skills.
As to letting tribal dynamics dictate how skills are developed, I think we don’t really have a choice there. People are social animals and everything they do and think is strongly effected by the society they are in. The only choice is trying to shape this society and those dynamics to make them beneficial rather than detrimental.
This might be possible, but should be specific to particular groups, unless there is a recipe for reproducing the norms. It’s very easy for any set of beneficial norms to be trampled by tribal dynamics. The standard story is loss of fidelity, with people who care about the mission somewhat less, or who are not as capable of incarnating its purpose, coming to dominate a movement. At that point, observation of the beneficial norms turns into a cargo cult.
Thus the phenomenon of tribes seeks to destroy the phenomenon of skills. This applies to any nuanced purpose, even when it’s the founding purpose of a tribe. Survival of a purpose requires an explanation, which won’t be generic tribal dynamics or a set of norms helpful in the short term.
everything they do and think is strongly affected by the society
A skill-aspected tribe uses its norms to police how you pursue skills. Tribes whose identity is unrelated to pursuit of same skills won’t affect this activity strongly.
...Thus the phenomenon of tribes seeks to destroy the phenomenon of skills
I don’t think it’s “the phenomenon of tribes”, I think it’s a phenomenon of tribes. Humans virtually always occupy one tribe or another, so it makes no more sense to say that “tribes destroy skills” than, for example, “DNA destroys skills”. There is no tribeless counterfactual we can compare to.
A skill-aspected tribe uses its norms to police how you pursue skills. Tribes whose identity is unrelated to pursuit of same skills won’t affect this activity strongly.
I think any tribe affects how you pursue skills by determining which skills are rewarded (or punished), and which skills you have room to exercise.
Skills and tribes are certainly different things, I’m not sure why are they opposed things? We should keep track the distinction and at the same time continue building a beneficial tribe. I agree that in terms of terminology, “rationalist” is a terrible name for “member of the LessWrong-ish community” and we should use something else (e.g. LessWronger).
They are opposed in the sense that using one in place of the other causes trouble. For example, insisting on meticulous observation of skills would be annoying and sometimes counterproductive in a tribe, and letting tribal dynamics dictate how skills are developed would corrode quality.
A tribe shouldn’t insist on a meticulous observation of skills, broadly speaking, but it should impose norms on e.g. which rhetorical moves are encouraged/discouraged in a discussion, and it should create positive incentives for the meticulous observation of skills.
As to letting tribal dynamics dictate how skills are developed, I think we don’t really have a choice there. People are social animals and everything they do and think is strongly effected by the society they are in. The only choice is trying to shape this society and those dynamics to make them beneficial rather than detrimental.
This might be possible, but should be specific to particular groups, unless there is a recipe for reproducing the norms. It’s very easy for any set of beneficial norms to be trampled by tribal dynamics. The standard story is loss of fidelity, with people who care about the mission somewhat less, or who are not as capable of incarnating its purpose, coming to dominate a movement. At that point, observation of the beneficial norms turns into a cargo cult.
Thus the phenomenon of tribes seeks to destroy the phenomenon of skills. This applies to any nuanced purpose, even when it’s the founding purpose of a tribe. Survival of a purpose requires an explanation, which won’t be generic tribal dynamics or a set of norms helpful in the short term.
A skill-aspected tribe uses its norms to police how you pursue skills. Tribes whose identity is unrelated to pursuit of same skills won’t affect this activity strongly.
I don’t think it’s “the phenomenon of tribes”, I think it’s a phenomenon of tribes. Humans virtually always occupy one tribe or another, so it makes no more sense to say that “tribes destroy skills” than, for example, “DNA destroys skills”. There is no tribeless counterfactual we can compare to.
I think any tribe affects how you pursue skills by determining which skills are rewarded (or punished), and which skills you have room to exercise.