LW/EA has more “world saving” orgs than just Leverage. Implicit to “world saving” orgs, IMO, is that we should tolerate some impropriety for the greater good. Or that we should handle things quietly in order to not damage the greater mission.
I think that our “world saving” orgs ask a lot of trust from the broader community—MIRI is a very clear example. I’m not really trying to condemn secrecy I am just pointing out that trust is asked of us.
I recognize that this is inflammatory but I don’t see a reason to beat around the bush: Leverage really seems like a cult. It seems like an unsafe institution doing harmful things. I am not sure how much this stuff about Leverage is really news to people involved in our other “world saving” orgs. I think probably not much. I don’t want “world saving” orgs to have solidarity. If you want my trust you have to sell out the cult leaders, the rapists, etcetera, regardless of whether it might damage your “world saving” mission. I’m not confident that that’s occurring.
IMO, is that we should tolerate some impropriety for the greater good.
I agree!
I am just pointing out that trust is asked of us.
I agree!
Leverage really seems like a cult. It seems like an unsafe institution doing harmful things.
Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0 (remote team, focus on science history rather than psychology, 4 people).
I am not sure how much this stuff about Leverage is really news to people involved in our other “world saving” orgs.
The information in Zoe’s Medium post was significant news to me and others I’ve spoken to.
(saying the below for general clarity, not just in response to you)
I think everyone (?) in this thread is deeply concerned, but we’re hoping to figure out what exactly happened, what went wrong and why (and what maybe to do about it). To do that investigation and postmortem, we can’t skip to sentencing (forgive me if that’s not your intention, but it reads a bit to me that that’s what you want to be happening), nor would it be epistemically virtuous or just to do so.
Some major new information came to light, people need time to process it, surface other relevant information, and make statements. The matter is complicated by forces inhibiting people from speaking both in favor and against Leverage. If there’s any reluctance to “sell out” Leverage, it’s because people want to have the full conversation first, not because of any sense of solidarity that we’re all “world saving” orgs.
To do that investigation and postmortem, we can’t skip to sentencing (forgive me if that’s not your intention, but it reads a bit to me that that’s what you want to be happening), nor would it be epistemically virtuous or just to do so.
I super agree with this, but also want to note that I feel appreciation for farp’s comments here. The conversation on this page feels to me like it has a missing mood: I found myself looking for comments that said something like “wow, this account is really horrifying and tragic; we’re taking these claims really seriously, and are investigating what actions we should take in response”. Maybe everyone thinks that that’s obvious, and so instead is emphasizing the part where we’re committed to due process and careful thinking and avoiding mob dynamics. But I think it’s still worth stating explicitly, especially from those in leadership positions in the community. I found myself relieved just reading Ruby’s response here that “everyone in this thread is deeply concerned”.
I super agree with this, but also want to note that I feel appreciation for farp’s comments here.
Fair!
I found myself looking for comments that said something like “wow, this account is really horrifying and tragic; we’re taking these claims really seriously, and are investigating what actions we should take in response”
My models of most of the people I know in this thread feel that way. I can say on my own behalf that I found Zoe’s account shocking. I found it disturbing to think that was going on with people I knew and interacted with. I find it disturbing that if this really is true, how did it not surface until now? (Or how it was ignored until now?) I’m disturbed that Leverage’s weirdness (and usually I’m quite okay with weirdness) turned out to enable and hide terrible things, at least for one person and likely more. I’m saddened that it happened, because based on the account, it seems like Leverage were trying to accomplish some ambitious, good things and I wish we lived in a world where the “red flags” (group-living, mental experimentation, etc) were safely ignored in the pursuit in the service of great things.
Suddenly I am in a world more awful than the one I thought I was in, and I’m trying to reorient. Something went wrong and something different needs to happen now. Though I’m confident it will, it’s just a matter of ensuring we pick the right different thing.
Thank you, I really appreciate this response. I did guess that this was probably how you and others (like Anna, whose comments have been very measured) felt, but it is really reassuring to have it explicitly verbally confirmed, and not just have to trust that it’s probably true.
Sorry, only just now saw that I was mentioned by name here. I agree that Zoe’s experiences were horrifying and sad, and that it’s worth quite a bit to try to spare others that kind of thing. Not mangling peoples’ souls matters, rather a lot, both intrinsically (because people matter) and instrumentally (because we need integrity if we want to do anything real and sustained).
The information in Zoe’s Medium post was significant news to me and others I’ve spoken to.
That’s a good thing to assert. It seems preeeetty likely that some leaders in the community knew more or less what was up. I want people to care about whether that is true or not.
To do that investigation and postmortem, we can’t skip to sentencing
I get this sentiment, but at the same time I think it’s good to be clear about what is at stake. It’s easy for me to interpret comments like “Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0” as essentially claiming that, while post-mortems are useful, the situation is behind us.
Simply put, if I were a victim, I would want to speak up for the sake of accountability, not shared examination and learning. If I spoke up and found that everyone agreed the behavior was bad, but we all learned from it and are ready ot move on, I would be pretty upset by that. And my understanding is that this is how the community’s leaders have handled other episodes of abuse (based on 0 private information, only public / second hand information).
But I am coming into this with a lot of assumptions as an outsider. If these assumptions don’t resonate with any people who are closer to the situation then I apologize. Regardless sorry for stirring shit up with not much concrete to say.
It’s easy for me to interpret comments like “Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0” as essentially claiming that, while post-mortems are useful, the situation is behind us.
Given my high priors on “the past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior”, I would assume that the greatest difference will be better OPSEC and PR. Also, more resouces to silence critics.
It seems preeeetty likely that some leaders in the community knew more or less what was up. I want people to care about whether that is true or not.
I would be quite surprised if the people I would call leaders knew of things that were as severe as Zoe’s account and “did nothing”. I care a lot whether that’s true.
It’s easy for me to interpret comments like “Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0” as essentially claiming that, while post-mortems are useful, the situation is behind us.
My intention was to say that we don’t have reason to believe there is harm actively occurring right now that we need to intervene on immediately. A day or two to figure things out is fine.
Simply put, if I were a victim, I would want to speak up for the sake of accountability, not shared examination and learning.
Based on what Zoe said plus general models of these situations, I believe how victims feel is likely complicated. I’m hesitant to make assumptions here. (Btw, see here for where some people are trying to set up an anonymous database of experiences at Leverage).
And my understanding is that this is how the community’s leaders have handled other episodes of abuse (based on 0 private information, only public / second hand information).
I might suggest creating another post (so as to not interfere too much with this one) detailing what you believe to be the case so that we can discuss and figure out any systematic issues.
I might suggest creating another post (so as to not interfere too much with this one) detailing what you believe to be the case so that we can discuss and figure out any systematic issues.
Look uhhh I believe at the very least the most basic claims about how Anna handled Robert Lecnik.
I would be quite surprised if the people I would call leaders knew of things that were as severe as Zoe’s account and “did nothing”. I care a lot whether that’s true.
(This renders on my phone as an o with a not-umlaut-but-similar over it followed by a D, and I don’t know whether that’s what it was intended to look like and I just don’t know what it means, or if it’s intended to look different than that.)
Based on what Zoe said plus general models of these situations, I believe how victims feel is likely complicated. I’m hesitant to make assumptions here. (Btw, see here for where some people are trying to set up an anonymous database of experiences at Leverage).
Having a database run by an anonymous person for that purpose seems to be very questionable. Zoe’s edited her post to reference Aella as a point person for people who want to share their stories, so that’s likely the best place.
That’s my context. However I agree that my contributions haven’t been very high EV in that I’m very far on the outside of a delicate situation and throwing my weight around. So I won’t keep trying to intervene / subtextually post.
we should tolerate some impropriety for the greater good
On one level I think this is correct, but...I also think it’s possibly a little naïve.
In the potential world which consists of only “us”, the people who think this world saving needs done, and who think like “we” do, your statement becomes more true.
In the world we live in wherein the vast majority of people think the world saving we’re talking about is unimportant, or bad, or evil, your statement requires closer and closer to perfect secrecy and insularity to remain true.
Re: @Ruby on my brusqueness
LW/EA has more “world saving” orgs than just Leverage. Implicit to “world saving” orgs, IMO, is that we should tolerate some impropriety for the greater good. Or that we should handle things quietly in order to not damage the greater mission.
I think that our “world saving” orgs ask a lot of trust from the broader community—MIRI is a very clear example. I’m not really trying to condemn secrecy I am just pointing out that trust is asked of us.
I recognize that this is inflammatory but I don’t see a reason to beat around the bush:
Leverage really seems like a cult. It seems like an unsafe institution doing harmful things. I am not sure how much this stuff about Leverage is really news to people involved in our other “world saving” orgs. I think probably not much. I don’t want “world saving” orgs to have solidarity. If you want my trust you have to sell out the cult leaders, the rapists, etcetera, regardless of whether it might damage your “world saving” mission. I’m not confident that that’s occurring.
I agree!
I agree!
Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0 (remote team, focus on science history rather than psychology, 4 people).
The information in Zoe’s Medium post was significant news to me and others I’ve spoken to.
(saying the below for general clarity, not just in response to you)
I think everyone (?) in this thread is deeply concerned, but we’re hoping to figure out what exactly happened, what went wrong and why (and what maybe to do about it). To do that investigation and postmortem, we can’t skip to sentencing (forgive me if that’s not your intention, but it reads a bit to me that that’s what you want to be happening), nor would it be epistemically virtuous or just to do so.
Some major new information came to light, people need time to process it, surface other relevant information, and make statements. The matter is complicated by forces inhibiting people from speaking both in favor and against Leverage. If there’s any reluctance to “sell out” Leverage, it’s because people want to have the full conversation first, not because of any sense of solidarity that we’re all “world saving” orgs.
I super agree with this, but also want to note that I feel appreciation for farp’s comments here. The conversation on this page feels to me like it has a missing mood: I found myself looking for comments that said something like “wow, this account is really horrifying and tragic; we’re taking these claims really seriously, and are investigating what actions we should take in response”. Maybe everyone thinks that that’s obvious, and so instead is emphasizing the part where we’re committed to due process and careful thinking and avoiding mob dynamics. But I think it’s still worth stating explicitly, especially from those in leadership positions in the community. I found myself relieved just reading Ruby’s response here that “everyone in this thread is deeply concerned”.
Fair!
My models of most of the people I know in this thread feel that way. I can say on my own behalf that I found Zoe’s account shocking. I found it disturbing to think that was going on with people I knew and interacted with. I find it disturbing that if this really is true, how did it not surface until now? (Or how it was ignored until now?) I’m disturbed that Leverage’s weirdness (and usually I’m quite okay with weirdness) turned out to enable and hide terrible things, at least for one person and likely more. I’m saddened that it happened, because based on the account, it seems like Leverage were trying to accomplish some ambitious, good things and I wish we lived in a world where the “red flags” (group-living, mental experimentation, etc) were safely ignored in the pursuit in the service of great things.
Suddenly I am in a world more awful than the one I thought I was in, and I’m trying to reorient. Something went wrong and something different needs to happen now. Though I’m confident it will, it’s just a matter of ensuring we pick the right different thing.
Thank you, I really appreciate this response. I did guess that this was probably how you and others (like Anna, whose comments have been very measured) felt, but it is really reassuring to have it explicitly verbally confirmed, and not just have to trust that it’s probably true.
Sorry, only just now saw that I was mentioned by name here. I agree that Zoe’s experiences were horrifying and sad, and that it’s worth quite a bit to try to spare others that kind of thing. Not mangling peoples’ souls matters, rather a lot, both intrinsically (because people matter) and instrumentally (because we need integrity if we want to do anything real and sustained).
+1
That’s a good thing to assert.
It seems preeeetty likely that some leaders in the community knew more or less what was up. I want people to care about whether that is true or not.
I get this sentiment, but at the same time I think it’s good to be clear about what is at stake. It’s easy for me to interpret comments like “Reminder that Leverage 1.0 is defunct and it seems very unlikely that the same things are going on with Leverage 2.0” as essentially claiming that, while post-mortems are useful, the situation is behind us.
Simply put, if I were a victim, I would want to speak up for the sake of accountability, not shared examination and learning. If I spoke up and found that everyone agreed the behavior was bad, but we all learned from it and are ready ot move on, I would be pretty upset by that. And my understanding is that this is how the community’s leaders have handled other episodes of abuse (based on 0 private information, only public / second hand information).
But I am coming into this with a lot of assumptions as an outsider. If these assumptions don’t resonate with any people who are closer to the situation then I apologize. Regardless sorry for stirring shit up with not much concrete to say.
Given my high priors on “the past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior”, I would assume that the greatest difference will be better OPSEC and PR. Also, more resouces to silence critics.
I would be quite surprised if the people I would call leaders knew of things that were as severe as Zoe’s account and “did nothing”. I care a lot whether that’s true.
My intention was to say that we don’t have reason to believe there is harm actively occurring right now that we need to intervene on immediately. A day or two to figure things out is fine.
Based on what Zoe said plus general models of these situations, I believe how victims feel is likely complicated. I’m hesitant to make assumptions here. (Btw, see here for where some people are trying to set up an anonymous database of experiences at Leverage).
I might suggest creating another post (so as to not interfere too much with this one) detailing what you believe to be the case so that we can discuss and figure out any systematic issues.
Look uhhh I believe at the very least the most basic claims about how Anna handled Robert Lecnik.
👍 (non sarcastic)
(This renders on my phone as an o with a not-umlaut-but-similar over it followed by a D, and I don’t know whether that’s what it was intended to look like and I just don’t know what it means, or if it’s intended to look different than that.)
its a thumbsup emoji on mac OS. 👍
Having a database run by an anonymous person for that purpose seems to be very questionable. Zoe’s edited her post to reference Aella as a point person for people who want to share their stories, so that’s likely the best place.
That is the database run by Aella. By anonymous I meant it’s anonymous for the posters.
That’s my context. However I agree that my contributions haven’t been very high EV in that I’m very far on the outside of a delicate situation and throwing my weight around. So I won’t keep trying to intervene / subtextually post.
On one level I think this is correct, but...I also think it’s possibly a little naïve.
In the potential world which consists of only “us”, the people who think this world saving needs done, and who think like “we” do, your statement becomes more true.
In the world we live in wherein the vast majority of people think the world saving we’re talking about is unimportant, or bad, or evil, your statement requires closer and closer to perfect secrecy and insularity to remain true.