My experience with “structural” introspection is that either I just try to look and find nothing, or I look for something specific, in which case I can almost always find it with sufficient effort. I’ve tried meditation a few times and quickly stopped after not finding a way to avoid this. So naturally, I’m sceptical of this.
When I do this kind of exercise, a result that I may get is that there is the sight of the object, and then a pattern of tension behind my eyes. Something about the pattern of tension feels like “me” - when I feel that “I am looking at a plant in front of me”, this could be broken down to “there is a tension in my consciousness, it feels like the tension is what’s looking at the plant, and that tension feels like me”.
But suppose that you now get a little confused. Rather than taking the spot with red ink as indicating your location in your physical world, you take the red spot on the map to be your physical location. That is, you think that you are the “YOU ARE HERE” tag, looking at the rest of the map from the red ink itself.
But a particular tag in the sense data is not actually where they are looking at it from; for one, the visual cortex is located in the back of the head, rather than right behind the eyes. Furthermore, any visual information is in principle just a piece of data that has been fed into a program running in the brain. If we think of cognitive programs as analogous to computer programs, then a computer program that is fed a piece of data isn’t really “looking at” the data “from” any spatial direction.
I tried the exercise. I didn’t know what you expected, but my idea of “noticing myself looking” is a model, so I found something like seeing myself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective. I think I could reproduce your result, but I’m writing this the day after, and now that Im no longer tired I have to create the tension on purpose.
I’m not sure I understand. If you thought you were at the red dot rather than at the location in the world it marks, wouldn’t that be analogous to thinking you are the feeling of tension, rather than to thinking you are at the location that feeling indicates?
There is also a sense in which you are looking at the world from behind your eyes. Your visual image is a projection with the focal point behind your eyes. If you try the same exercise with holding something in your hand and feeling it rather than looking at something, how does that work out? I tried to do “the same thing” I did to reproduce the tension behind the eyes, and the sensation was just below my skin. I dont know if that’s the “right” answer, but if it is, the fact that it’s not in the head might suggest the previous result is an artifact.
The outcome seems to be that rather than identifying with the sensations of the supposed observer, one’s identity shifts to the entire field of consciousness itself (in line with the thing about a program reading a file not having any location that would be defined in terms of the file):
There are two quotes after that. The first seems congurent with what you said, but the second sounds like identifying with all the contents of consiousness rather than with the field they are in (or is that distinction not real?).
On the other hand, some situations just trigger the self-related planning machinery very strongly. In vipassana/mindfulness-style approaches, one frequently ends up creating a sense of being an observer who is detached from their thoughts and emotions.
This is what I understood “identifying with the field of conciousness” to mean, is that right? I think I can do that, but it seems it’s not compatible with goal-directed action, which would require its own self-markers as described.
Once one gets to this kind of a state, the subsystem trained to do this can continue to further investigate the contents of the mind in fine detail… either looking at other characteristics like impermanence or unsatisfactoriness, or turning its focus on itself, to deepen the no-self realization by seeing that the observer self that it is projecting is also something that can be dis-identified with.
That’s supposed to happen? Usually what happens in observer mode is that the “normal” conscious content runs out quickly, because as per above I can’t do anything else meanwhile (or at least, I can’t keep doing it on purpose). And then I just hear myself saying ”..and I feel X in my hand”. But that doesn’t lead anywhere special, the observer just starts to have some more complicated thoughts until it takes over all the “space”, and then I’m back to normal cognition.
(Sorry for the late response; I seem to have missed this comment earlier.)
’I’m not sure I understand. If you thought you were at the red dot rather than at the location in the world it marks, wouldn’t that be analogous to thinking you are the feeling of tension, rather than to thinking you are at the location that feeling indicates?
Hmm, is there a difference? In that if you think that you are the feeling of tension, then logically you are also at the location of the tension.
I tried the exercise. I didn’t know what you expected, but my idea of “noticing myself looking” is a model, so I found something like seeing myself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective. I think I could reproduce your result, but I’m writing this the day after, and now that Im no longer tired I have to create the tension on purpose. [...]
There is also a sense in which you are looking at the world from behind your eyes. Your visual image is a projection with the focal point behind your eyes. If you try the same exercise with holding something in your hand and feeling it rather than looking at something, how does that work out? I tried to do “the same thing” I did to reproduce the tension behind the eyes, and the sensation was just below my skin. I dont know if that’s the “right” answer, but if it is, the fact that it’s not in the head might suggest the previous result is an artifact.
Yes, subtle differences in how these kinds of exercises are framed produce different kinds of results. Noticing that is part of the point—if you examine one kind of experience, you may notice your brain telling you that you are in one place; if you examine another kind of experience, you may notice your brain telling you that you are in another place. Sometimes the “you” may be a feeling of tension, sometimes a feeling under your skin, sometimes a visual image. These kinds of inconsistencies suggest that a part of the experience of the self, is actually an interpretation that is constructed on the fly, rather than being fundamental in the sense that intuition might otherwise suggest.
(If you have the experience of seeing yourself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective, then a question that might be interesting to investigate is “where are you looking at the third-person image from?”. Not trying to fit the answer into the model that I have explained here, nor going into any intellectual mode of analysis, but just paying attention to the experience and what the answer to that question might feel like...)
There are two quotes after that. The first seems congurent with what you said, but the second sounds like identifying with all the contents of consiousness rather than with the field they are in (or is that distinction not real?).
Good catch! I think it’s basically the same, despite sounding different; I briefly say a few words about that at the end of a later post.
This is what I understood “identifying with the field of conciousness” to mean, is that right? I think I can do that, but it seems it’s not compatible with goal-directed action, which would require its own self-markers as described.
It’s possible to get into states where you have this to at least some extent, but there’s also some goal-directed action going on; and you are identifying with a process which is observing that goal-directed action, rather than getting pulled into it.
That said, I don’t want to say anything about what is “supposed” to happen, because that easily creates craving to experience the thing that’s supposed to happen, and then craving warps the experience to make you see what it thinks that the thing will look like, which may not be the same thing. (See the next post about craving.) It’s often better to not have very strong expectations, and just keep investigating what seems to happen when you do different things...
Hmm, is there a difference? In that if you think that you are the feeling of tension, then logically you are also at the location of the tension.
Yes, there is a difference between the location of the tension and the location of the feeling of the tension. The location of the tension is behind my eyes, the location of the feeling is… good question. Somewhere in my head; ask neuroscience. The tag (=dot) can only be added to the feeling, since only that is mental, so that would have to be the “map”. By analogy: If I go put the map into my bag, the location of the red dot moves, but the location it indicates doesnt. If I turn my head, the location of the feeling (presumably) moves, but the location of the tension only coincidentally moves because its physically connected. If it’s a tension on my hand instead, then it wouldnt move.
These kinds of inconsistencies suggest that a part of the experience of the self, is actually an interpretation that is constructed on the fly, rather than being fundamental in the sense that intuition might otherwise suggest.
I dont disagree with this, but more because I think almost everything is like that. Or do you mean something that wouldn’t be true of e.g. detecting objects? My point was that when feeling a thing in the hand, the method would locate your “self” in the hand. But noone beliefs their self is in their hand, not even intuitively. Therefore, those sensations are not a sense of self, it only seemed that way because the visual version made sense by coincidence.
If you have the experience of seeing yourself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective, then a question that might be interesting to investigate is “where are you looking at the third-person image from?”.
On my left side 1.5-2m from me at the same height as my head. But I dont think thats helpful, its again just the focal point of that visual field, and it’s an imagined picture anyway, so that point isn’t in regular space-time.
Good catch! I think it’s basically the same, despite sounding different; I briefly say a few words about that at the end of a later post.
I think I understand. The self-tag applies to experiences, so identifying with the plane would mean tagging your model of the plane. But in the Truely Enlightened state you should be aware of the tagging, and so only identify with experiences?
It’s possible to get into states where you have this to at least some extent, but there’s also some goal-directed action going on; and you are identifying with a process which is observing that goal-directed action, rather than getting pulled into it.
How would that process plan without self-markers? Maybe they could be self-markers but not “yours”, but there’d need to be some more explanation of that.
My experience with “structural” introspection is that either I just try to look and find nothing, or I look for something specific, in which case I can almost always find it with sufficient effort. I’ve tried meditation a few times and quickly stopped after not finding a way to avoid this. So naturally, I’m sceptical of this.
I tried the exercise. I didn’t know what you expected, but my idea of “noticing myself looking” is a model, so I found something like seeing myself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective. I think I could reproduce your result, but I’m writing this the day after, and now that Im no longer tired I have to create the tension on purpose.
I’m not sure I understand. If you thought you were at the red dot rather than at the location in the world it marks, wouldn’t that be analogous to thinking you are the feeling of tension, rather than to thinking you are at the location that feeling indicates?
There is also a sense in which you are looking at the world from behind your eyes. Your visual image is a projection with the focal point behind your eyes. If you try the same exercise with holding something in your hand and feeling it rather than looking at something, how does that work out? I tried to do “the same thing” I did to reproduce the tension behind the eyes, and the sensation was just below my skin. I dont know if that’s the “right” answer, but if it is, the fact that it’s not in the head might suggest the previous result is an artifact.
There are two quotes after that. The first seems congurent with what you said, but the second sounds like identifying with all the contents of consiousness rather than with the field they are in (or is that distinction not real?).
This is what I understood “identifying with the field of conciousness” to mean, is that right? I think I can do that, but it seems it’s not compatible with goal-directed action, which would require its own self-markers as described.
That’s supposed to happen? Usually what happens in observer mode is that the “normal” conscious content runs out quickly, because as per above I can’t do anything else meanwhile (or at least, I can’t keep doing it on purpose). And then I just hear myself saying ”..and I feel X in my hand”. But that doesn’t lead anywhere special, the observer just starts to have some more complicated thoughts until it takes over all the “space”, and then I’m back to normal cognition.
(Sorry for the late response; I seem to have missed this comment earlier.)
Hmm, is there a difference? In that if you think that you are the feeling of tension, then logically you are also at the location of the tension.
Yes, subtle differences in how these kinds of exercises are framed produce different kinds of results. Noticing that is part of the point—if you examine one kind of experience, you may notice your brain telling you that you are in one place; if you examine another kind of experience, you may notice your brain telling you that you are in another place. Sometimes the “you” may be a feeling of tension, sometimes a feeling under your skin, sometimes a visual image. These kinds of inconsistencies suggest that a part of the experience of the self, is actually an interpretation that is constructed on the fly, rather than being fundamental in the sense that intuition might otherwise suggest.
(If you have the experience of seeing yourself staring at the thing from a third-person perspective, then a question that might be interesting to investigate is “where are you looking at the third-person image from?”. Not trying to fit the answer into the model that I have explained here, nor going into any intellectual mode of analysis, but just paying attention to the experience and what the answer to that question might feel like...)
Good catch! I think it’s basically the same, despite sounding different; I briefly say a few words about that at the end of a later post.
It’s possible to get into states where you have this to at least some extent, but there’s also some goal-directed action going on; and you are identifying with a process which is observing that goal-directed action, rather than getting pulled into it.
That said, I don’t want to say anything about what is “supposed” to happen, because that easily creates craving to experience the thing that’s supposed to happen, and then craving warps the experience to make you see what it thinks that the thing will look like, which may not be the same thing. (See the next post about craving.) It’s often better to not have very strong expectations, and just keep investigating what seems to happen when you do different things...
No problem.
Yes, there is a difference between the location of the tension and the location of the feeling of the tension. The location of the tension is behind my eyes, the location of the feeling is… good question. Somewhere in my head; ask neuroscience. The tag (=dot) can only be added to the feeling, since only that is mental, so that would have to be the “map”. By analogy: If I go put the map into my bag, the location of the red dot moves, but the location it indicates doesnt. If I turn my head, the location of the feeling (presumably) moves, but the location of the tension only coincidentally moves because its physically connected. If it’s a tension on my hand instead, then it wouldnt move.
I dont disagree with this, but more because I think almost everything is like that. Or do you mean something that wouldn’t be true of e.g. detecting objects? My point was that when feeling a thing in the hand, the method would locate your “self” in the hand. But noone beliefs their self is in their hand, not even intuitively. Therefore, those sensations are not a sense of self, it only seemed that way because the visual version made sense by coincidence.
On my left side 1.5-2m from me at the same height as my head. But I dont think thats helpful, its again just the focal point of that visual field, and it’s an imagined picture anyway, so that point isn’t in regular space-time.
I think I understand. The self-tag applies to experiences, so identifying with the plane would mean tagging your model of the plane. But in the Truely Enlightened state you should be aware of the tagging, and so only identify with experiences?
How would that process plan without self-markers? Maybe they could be self-markers but not “yours”, but there’d need to be some more explanation of that.