Yeah maybe I am callous about massage safety. Please recommend resources.
I think the crux is that I have the assumption that any harmful motion will hurt before it does significant damage. But if you’re not paying close attention to pain, yeah I think you could easily hurt yourself and others.
I would be wary of deep massage in the abdominal region. You don’t want to damage organs or tear open someone’s abdominal aorta (or even weaken the wall of their aorta). Internal bleeding can be life-threatening. Important organs like the kidneys aren’t always well protected. You could cause organ bruising or worse. EDIT: Risks of internal bleeding or bruising are especially severe if someone is on an anticoagulant like warfarin. Avoiding acupressure could also be wise in that case.
I’m currently recovering from what I believe is an internal injury I gave myself from doing a super intense deep back massage [edit: while on a low dose of an anticoagulant supplement—likely just a bruise]. Prior to that I did many years of massage with ~no issues, although I did try to follow safety tips from massage books.
If you have tense muscles in your abdomen, I think finding creative ways to lie (or even wall sit) using a mat like this is a much safer option than doing massage:
It costs negative time to use an acupressure mat if it helps you fall asleep ;-) I’ve tried a lot of things for sleep, and the acupressure mat has been one of my most powerful tools.
The pillow that comes with the mat is a good tool for the back of your neck, another sensitive region I’m wary of massaging. Lots of people have tension there. I sometimes notice my cognition improving after I release the muscles in the back of my neck and the back of my head. I think it’s due to increased blood flow to my brain. The release from the pillow will be most intense if you shave your head first, for full contact.
But after poking around on that website I’m like “Yep, I only massage healthy people. Don’t push anything that hurts a lot. Don’t do anything obviously bad like massaging weak areas around injuries. Also the neck is sensitive (I already avoided this intuitively)”.
I expected more of an update. Do you think I missing anything specific & significant? (Other than our likely crux about priors.)
It’s not just a matter of the neck being sensitive, it’s also the arteries that go through the neck. You don’t want to massage an artery in that area, because you could knock some plaque off of the inside of the artery and give someone a stroke. Rule of thumb is never massage a pulse, and know where the arteries in the neck go.
For example, this book advises against deep massage in the suboccipital triangle area in the back of your head—the author claims you could give someone a stroke that way. (BTW, I would suggest you probably not do the “quick vertebral artery test” described in that book, I remember finding some stuff online about how it is inaccurate and/or dangerous.)
Similarly, you might not necessarily think of the area behind your jaw and below your ear as part of the neck, but it’s a sensitive area because there’s an artery right around there, and there is a small stalactite shaped bone you could break right off. That artery goes down the front of your neck and beneath your collarbone. Definitely read a guide for safety before attempting to treat that area—there’s one in the book I linked.
The temple is also not a place to apply heavy pressure. The book I linked recommends just letting your head rest on your fingertips if you want to massage that area. (Or you could make creative use of the acupressure mat I linked elsewhere in this thread, especially if you shave your head first.)
In general, light pressure is safer than heavy pressure, and can be more effective if you go about it right. I like to to experiment with sustained pinches and pokes (like, over 2-3 minutes even, if I find a good spot) as I very gradually move inwards in response to tiny, barely perceptible sub-millimeter release sensations in the muscle. This can work as a very slow massage stroke too. (I know I’m not describing this very well, I’m just trying to give people ideas for experiments to try.) Careful not to overdo it though, this sort of approach is very hard on the small muscles in your forearm. Actually, learning forearm massage is a great place to start, because then you have a shot at repairing RSI or other overuse injuries (including from massage!) in your forearm. [EDIT: Note, RSI is often just the tip of the iceberg, you probably have lots of upper body tension if you get RSI, and that’s quite likely the root cause.] Buying massage hand tools online is another good way to save your forearm muscles. And the book I linked has great ergonomics advice.
As a general rule, I think pinching is safer than poking, because you can be more certain that you are just massaging muscle rather than artery or bone. And it seems more effective too, especially if you create slack in the muscle you’re treating. However, pinching is rather hard on your fingers and forearms, so you’re liable to give yourself RSI if you overdo it (which in theory should be treatable with massage, I guess, but you might need to get a friend to do it if you’re no longer able to massage yourself!)
Another thing massage books mention is that you’re technically supposed to always treat a muscle and its antagonist (roughly, the muscle which performs the opposite motion, I believe?) in the same session. If you don’t do this, the antagonist is liable to tense up in response to its complement being released? However, the risk here is more like “annoying, hard-to-diagnose chronic pain” as opposed to the sort of injury that could send you to the ER.
I think there is a lot of alpha in massage therapy. I’ve been doing it for years, and it’s helped with a surprising variety of problems (e.g. had migraines at one point, massaging deep in my shoulder and use of the acupressure pillow I mentioned elsewhere seemed to help a lot). It’d be cool if there were people on LW who were true experts at it, including safety expertise obviously (I don’t consider myself an expert there).
One of the best massage therapists I ever visited was a practitioner of what he called “neuromuscular therapy”. He told me about this site called somasimple.com, made it sound like LessWrong but for discussing the science of chronic pain. That was many years ago though. I think maybe he got his training from the National Association of Myofascial Trigger Point Therapists. IIRC, there are a number of groups like that which are endorsed by the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook that I linked elsewhere in this thread.
I think massage therapist could be a good career for those concerned about AI-driven automation, because some people will always be willing to pay a premium for a human therapist. I believe licensing is done on a state-by-state basis in the US. Perhaps best to check for a state which has licensing reciprocity agreements with other states, if you want some flexibility in your living situation.
I expected more of an update. Do you think I missing anything specific & significant? (Other than our likely crux about priors.)
It’s hard for me to say since I don’t know much about massage, but my guess is probably not too much.
Unlike the other commenters, I am not too worried about the safety risks here. People in romantic relationships massage each other all of the time without training, and that seems to be pretty safe. I suppose certain health conditions might put people at risk, but if so they’ve probably been informed of this by their doctor as something to look out for.
That said, as you scale up, things get more risky. Like suppose you trained 5,000 people and happened to miss something important regarding safety. That would be bad. The badness of the miss gets multiplied by 5,000 (roughly).
Yeah maybe I am callous about massage safety. Please recommend resources.
I think the crux is that I have the assumption that any harmful motion will hurt before it does significant damage. But if you’re not paying close attention to pain, yeah I think you could easily hurt yourself and others.
I would be wary of deep massage in the abdominal region. You don’t want to damage organs or tear open someone’s abdominal aorta (or even weaken the wall of their aorta). Internal bleeding can be life-threatening. Important organs like the kidneys aren’t always well protected. You could cause organ bruising or worse. EDIT: Risks of internal bleeding or bruising are especially severe if someone is on an anticoagulant like warfarin. Avoiding acupressure could also be wise in that case.
I’m currently recovering from what I believe is an internal injury I gave myself from doing a super intense deep back massage [edit: while on a low dose of an anticoagulant supplement—likely just a bruise]. Prior to that I did many years of massage with ~no issues, although I did try to follow safety tips from massage books.
If you have tense muscles in your abdomen, I think finding creative ways to lie (or even wall sit) using a mat like this is a much safer option than doing massage:
https://www.amazon.com/ProSource-Acupressure-Pillow-Relief-Relaxation/dp/B00I1QCPIK/
It costs negative time to use an acupressure mat if it helps you fall asleep ;-) I’ve tried a lot of things for sleep, and the acupressure mat has been one of my most powerful tools.
The pillow that comes with the mat is a good tool for the back of your neck, another sensitive region I’m wary of massaging. Lots of people have tension there. I sometimes notice my cognition improving after I release the muscles in the back of my neck and the back of my head. I think it’s due to increased blood flow to my brain. The release from the pillow will be most intense if you shave your head first, for full contact.
PainScience has lots of great content about massage. The author is a former massage therapist and has excellent epistemics IMO.
Ty. rhabdomyolysis is interesting.
But after poking around on that website I’m like “Yep, I only massage healthy people. Don’t push anything that hurts a lot. Don’t do anything obviously bad like massaging weak areas around injuries. Also the neck is sensitive (I already avoided this intuitively)”.
I expected more of an update. Do you think I missing anything specific & significant? (Other than our likely crux about priors.)
It’s not just a matter of the neck being sensitive, it’s also the arteries that go through the neck. You don’t want to massage an artery in that area, because you could knock some plaque off of the inside of the artery and give someone a stroke. Rule of thumb is never massage a pulse, and know where the arteries in the neck go.
For example, this book advises against deep massage in the suboccipital triangle area in the back of your head—the author claims you could give someone a stroke that way. (BTW, I would suggest you probably not do the “quick vertebral artery test” described in that book, I remember finding some stuff online about how it is inaccurate and/or dangerous.)
Similarly, you might not necessarily think of the area behind your jaw and below your ear as part of the neck, but it’s a sensitive area because there’s an artery right around there, and there is a small stalactite shaped bone you could break right off. That artery goes down the front of your neck and beneath your collarbone. Definitely read a guide for safety before attempting to treat that area—there’s one in the book I linked.
The temple is also not a place to apply heavy pressure. The book I linked recommends just letting your head rest on your fingertips if you want to massage that area. (Or you could make creative use of the acupressure mat I linked elsewhere in this thread, especially if you shave your head first.)
In general, light pressure is safer than heavy pressure, and can be more effective if you go about it right. I like to to experiment with sustained pinches and pokes (like, over 2-3 minutes even, if I find a good spot) as I very gradually move inwards in response to tiny, barely perceptible sub-millimeter release sensations in the muscle. This can work as a very slow massage stroke too. (I know I’m not describing this very well, I’m just trying to give people ideas for experiments to try.) Careful not to overdo it though, this sort of approach is very hard on the small muscles in your forearm. Actually, learning forearm massage is a great place to start, because then you have a shot at repairing RSI or other overuse injuries (including from massage!) in your forearm. [EDIT: Note, RSI is often just the tip of the iceberg, you probably have lots of upper body tension if you get RSI, and that’s quite likely the root cause.] Buying massage hand tools online is another good way to save your forearm muscles. And the book I linked has great ergonomics advice.
thanks for this comment!!
No prob.
As a general rule, I think pinching is safer than poking, because you can be more certain that you are just massaging muscle rather than artery or bone. And it seems more effective too, especially if you create slack in the muscle you’re treating. However, pinching is rather hard on your fingers and forearms, so you’re liable to give yourself RSI if you overdo it (which in theory should be treatable with massage, I guess, but you might need to get a friend to do it if you’re no longer able to massage yourself!)
Another thing massage books mention is that you’re technically supposed to always treat a muscle and its antagonist (roughly, the muscle which performs the opposite motion, I believe?) in the same session. If you don’t do this, the antagonist is liable to tense up in response to its complement being released? However, the risk here is more like “annoying, hard-to-diagnose chronic pain” as opposed to the sort of injury that could send you to the ER.
I think there is a lot of alpha in massage therapy. I’ve been doing it for years, and it’s helped with a surprising variety of problems (e.g. had migraines at one point, massaging deep in my shoulder and use of the acupressure pillow I mentioned elsewhere seemed to help a lot). It’d be cool if there were people on LW who were true experts at it, including safety expertise obviously (I don’t consider myself an expert there).
One of the best massage therapists I ever visited was a practitioner of what he called “neuromuscular therapy”. He told me about this site called somasimple.com, made it sound like LessWrong but for discussing the science of chronic pain. That was many years ago though. I think maybe he got his training from the National Association of Myofascial Trigger Point Therapists. IIRC, there are a number of groups like that which are endorsed by the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook that I linked elsewhere in this thread.
I think massage therapist could be a good career for those concerned about AI-driven automation, because some people will always be willing to pay a premium for a human therapist. I believe licensing is done on a state-by-state basis in the US. Perhaps best to check for a state which has licensing reciprocity agreements with other states, if you want some flexibility in your living situation.
somasimple.com doesn’t work?
It’s hard for me to say since I don’t know much about massage, but my guess is probably not too much.
Unlike the other commenters, I am not too worried about the safety risks here. People in romantic relationships massage each other all of the time without training, and that seems to be pretty safe. I suppose certain health conditions might put people at risk, but if so they’ve probably been informed of this by their doctor as something to look out for.
That said, as you scale up, things get more risky. Like suppose you trained 5,000 people and happened to miss something important regarding safety. That would be bad. The badness of the miss gets multiplied by 5,000 (roughly).