Cultures without slagging are somewhat unpleasant to me, they are an important form of roughhouse playing that helps people construct and maintain boundaries. In the same way that I expect children physically restrained from physical play with one another, including wrestling etc, to have social autoregulation problems as adults.
I’d love to see a top-level post on this, with a few examples more specific than “kids today are coddled and weak” (which I don’t know if you’re saying but a lot of non-LW people have said). I had a really unpleasant time in early grades, before I found my clique of nerds in high school, and I’d love to hear recommendations of what parts of that experience should be preserved for others.
Based on my experiences, I tend to believe that “consent” in roughhousing and verbal put-downs, especially for pre-teen children (though young adulthood for some), is impossible—some participants are mostly victims, and they don’t have a way to opt out.
I do see the point that a whole lot of things (and people) in life are unpleasant and unavoidable, and it’s better for most to learn coping strategies early rather than being unprepared. At early ages, I learned mostly avoidance and anger, but got more sophisticated later. I hope many would have the support and more diverse social experiences to learn better responses earlier, but it’s hard for me to recommend it.
Maybe this is just another case of avoiding typical mind fallacy and recognizing that one size does not fit all. I’m happy to be reminded that a somewhat adversarial culture is considered a good thing by some.
Can you think of some specific examples of an important kind of physical play where the consent of the other kid can’t be obtained explicitly (if that’s what you have in mind)?
I can’t think of any examples where consent cannot be obtained explicitly (barring things like, the person is currently in a state where they’re not capable of being verbal or processing verbal communication, or whatever).
The point is that there is a cost associated with obtaining explicit verbal consent. I think that it’s entirely plausible that that is, nevertheless, exactly the way to go—that this is the right distribution of costs, to protect people who are otherwise vulnerable.
But I don’t think we can actually do the math unless we actually weigh the costs and take them into account. I think a certain kind of person thinks that explicit verbal communication is costless, and tends to typical-mind about this, and thereby not validate its costly nature for People Unlike Themselves (of whom there are a lot).
Roughhousing-in-general is an example of the sort of place where, for a lot of humans and probably a majority (and probably a supermajority of males), obtaining explicit consent à la “wanna have a pillow fight?” is notably less nourishing than picking up a pillow and swinging away.
I agree (even though I would always err on the side of asking). I see three options:
Starting right away with a pillow fight. This has a potential of turning out to be highly uncomfortable/emotionally hurtful to a kid who doesn’t want to be suddenly hit with a pillow.
Initiating an epsilon big stimulus, and seeing if there is a positive or a negative feedback (and then continue either in a positive or a negative feedback loop). This could emotionally hurt a kid who doesn’t want even epsilon big probes without asking (even though not in case of a pillow fight, probably).
Asking first.
Giving the hypercomputer to Visser Three after all, since humans apparently can’t even have a pillow fight without emotionally hurting each other in some way
(Also, I’m not a consequentialist, so I wouldn’t resolve this by considering the utility lost by asking and comparing it to the utility gained by being cautious.)
I would never have considered that verbal consent has a cost. It’s just something totally outside my world model up to now. I guess I’m one of those people who typical-minds. The fact is, though, I tend to actively dislike and not want to be around the kind of people who would have trouble with that—or indeed, the kind of people who would just pick up a pillow and hit me with it without asking first! This probably relates to the fear / disgust / hatred of masculinity I had (was indoctrinated with by the media?) as a child. Funny how everything is connected...
Cultures without slagging are somewhat unpleasant to me, they are an important form of roughhouse playing that helps people construct and maintain boundaries. In the same way that I expect children physically restrained from physical play with one another, including wrestling etc, to have social autoregulation problems as adults.
I’d love to see a top-level post on this, with a few examples more specific than “kids today are coddled and weak” (which I don’t know if you’re saying but a lot of non-LW people have said). I had a really unpleasant time in early grades, before I found my clique of nerds in high school, and I’d love to hear recommendations of what parts of that experience should be preserved for others.
Based on my experiences, I tend to believe that “consent” in roughhousing and verbal put-downs, especially for pre-teen children (though young adulthood for some), is impossible—some participants are mostly victims, and they don’t have a way to opt out.
I do see the point that a whole lot of things (and people) in life are unpleasant and unavoidable, and it’s better for most to learn coping strategies early rather than being unprepared. At early ages, I learned mostly avoidance and anger, but got more sophisticated later. I hope many would have the support and more diverse social experiences to learn better responses earlier, but it’s hard for me to recommend it.
Maybe this is just another case of avoiding typical mind fallacy and recognizing that one size does not fit all. I’m happy to be reminded that a somewhat adversarial culture is considered a good thing by some.
I think consent can be obtained often, but also if only the skilled version of something is allowed then de facto kids aren’t allowed to do it.
A corollary: if only the skilled version of something is allowed, then learning the skill is de facto not allowed.
Can you think of some specific examples of an important kind of physical play where the consent of the other kid can’t be obtained explicitly (if that’s what you have in mind)?
I can’t think of any examples where consent cannot be obtained explicitly (barring things like, the person is currently in a state where they’re not capable of being verbal or processing verbal communication, or whatever).
The point is that there is a cost associated with obtaining explicit verbal consent. I think that it’s entirely plausible that that is, nevertheless, exactly the way to go—that this is the right distribution of costs, to protect people who are otherwise vulnerable.
But I don’t think we can actually do the math unless we actually weigh the costs and take them into account. I think a certain kind of person thinks that explicit verbal communication is costless, and tends to typical-mind about this, and thereby not validate its costly nature for People Unlike Themselves (of whom there are a lot).
Roughhousing-in-general is an example of the sort of place where, for a lot of humans and probably a majority (and probably a supermajority of males), obtaining explicit consent à la “wanna have a pillow fight?” is notably less nourishing than picking up a pillow and swinging away.
I agree (even though I would always err on the side of asking). I see three options:
Starting right away with a pillow fight. This has a potential of turning out to be highly uncomfortable/emotionally hurtful to a kid who doesn’t want to be suddenly hit with a pillow.
Initiating an epsilon big stimulus, and seeing if there is a positive or a negative feedback (and then continue either in a positive or a negative feedback loop). This could emotionally hurt a kid who doesn’t want even epsilon big probes without asking (even though not in case of a pillow fight, probably).
Asking first.
Giving the hypercomputer to Visser Three after all, since humans apparently can’t even have a pillow fight without emotionally hurting each other in some way(Also, I’m not a consequentialist, so I wouldn’t resolve this by considering the utility lost by asking and comparing it to the utility gained by being cautious.)
I would never have considered that verbal consent has a cost. It’s just something totally outside my world model up to now. I guess I’m one of those people who typical-minds. The fact is, though, I tend to actively dislike and not want to be around the kind of people who would have trouble with that—or indeed, the kind of people who would just pick up a pillow and hit me with it without asking first! This probably relates to the fear / disgust / hatred of masculinity I had (was indoctrinated with by the media?) as a child. Funny how everything is connected...