If your point is inherently about politics, then talk about Louis XVI during the French Revolution.
Or how about Marxism at least? Exact same dynamic as the one you speak of (the claim that they speak for a silent oppressed majority that’s certain to win out in the end), but far less likely to explode in your face on this blog.
I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position. I decided to go with the Republican case because it was where I originally noticed it and as far as I can tell the most archetypal example. I considered it acceptable because I’m not actually saying the Republicans are wrong about any particular policy issue.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time? Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians). Yes, it makes it easier to read without getting angry, but it seems too potentially dangerous to come here and see something else accusing Christians every night. I don’t know what to do about it.
It’s always going to be dangerous to point out the hypocrisy of a powerful ideology, but doing so puts you in the position of the underdog, the spunky inquisitor who puts himself in harm’s way by displeasing the powerful force.
If you point out the warts of less-powerful ideologies, you not only risk displeasing them but make yourself vulnerable to being viewed as bigoted or a bully. Unless the group is one which greater society has labeled as “Leper! Outcast! Unclean!”, that will also tend to draw the disapproval of others, and without the benefits of underdogging.
The safest route, for your reputation though not your honor, is to attack a group that society wishes you to attack for conformity’s sake. No one wishes to speak well of such a group, no matter how limitedly, for fear of being associated with them, and everyone wishes to demonstrate to the rest that they loathe the despised ones.
That means, of course, that when you die you’ll go to the special Hell. The one reserved for rhetoricians, and people who didn’t like Firefly.
It might also be useful to point out hypocrisy and incoherence in a range of political points of view., instead just choosing one.
General question: LW has been poking at the question of whether we can discuss politics rationally for at least a couple of years now. Have we made any progress in our ability to do so?
I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position.
The probability of a staunch Marxist commenting on this blog seems to be vastly less than the probability of a staunch (non-religious) Republican doing so. We don’t want to drive away many potential readers on account of their surface positions before they have a chance to reconsider things. Also, we really don’t want an accidental political flamewar to start in a comment thread, so political examples should be chosen to tread on fewer current toes if at all possible.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time?
No! This would make it even more likely to cause one of the bad outcomes above! This isn’t about “fairness”, it’s about prudence.
Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
Again, I think people here generally have the basic political literacy to recognize the Marxist example.
I spend most of my time abroad, and come across more (or at least louder) Marxist sympathizers than conservative Republican sympathizers. This is probably not representative of people on this blog, and I will take it into account next time I post something.
I actually come across more Marxist sympathizers in my day-to-day life than I do conservative Republican sympathizers. But I spend most of my time abroad, so I should’ve realized that wasn’t representative.
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians)
So am I, but I’m not sure choosing Republicans is a better alternative—to me it feels a bit too much like taking a dig at the Hated Enemy, like flagging Less Wrong as belonging on a particular place on the political spectrum.
I strongly second this. Reading this post (especially the bit about Republicans) tends to make me think about how I feel about contemporary american politics, and I don’t want to use that part of my brain, it’s bug-ridden and unreliable.
Still, it’s a great post. I’ve often got annoyed at how discussions turned into debating who deserved the most pity, and at the tacit assumption that it is in any way related to who is right. I wish there was a good way of pointing that out that didn’t make me sound like one of Them, the Evil Oppressors.
Reading this post tends to make me think about how I feel about contemporary american politics, and I don’t want to use that part of my brain, it’s bug-ridden and unreliable.
I understand the sentiment, but if we’re trying to overcome our biases/be less wrong, perhaps this is exactly the sort of practice we need?
Obviously, this this may not be the main point of any post where this issue arises, but are there things posters might do to encourage people not to think about things in damaging or counterproductive ways? Would a
Warning: vaguely political topic ahead; please exercise extreme caution in forming opinions
This reminds me of an American student wanting to improve their French who travels to France and learns math, science, history, etc. etc. in the French language. You greatly improve your French ability, but at the expense of greatly increasing the difficulty with which you learn everything else. Still, many people make the tradeoff and find the experience extremely rewarding. However, they generally do this after a few years of studying French in an American classroom. You would not want to do it if you were not already highly confident in your mastery of French.
So, are we confident enough in our ability to overcome political bias to consider studying abroad?
The point that there are tradeoffs involved here is well-made; but it’s not like anyone’s actually suggesting immersion in political topics (well, at least I’m not).
I’m suggesting that maybe it might not be such a bad thing to throw some French phrases into our general curriculum every now and then, particularly if the ideas happen to be more naturally expressed in French than in English. I’m also wondering whether, if we were going to do that, there are things we can do to minimize the damage that speaking French does to the learning experience.
(That sound you hear in the background is a strained metaphor snapping. Sorry.)
(That sound you hear in the background is a strained metaphor snapping. Sorry.)
Actually I think you were doing quite well with it. Sadly, I’m about to break it on purpose. The trouble is that talking politics is worse than speaking French. If I speak a sentence in French which you do not understand, your verbal subroutines usually do not return bad data, they return “error” (In fact you may well commit a mind-projection fallacy and think that I am speaking gibberish. This is an interesting case of “how the algorithm feels from the inside” on which I may write later.) If I start talking about whether the Palestinians deserve their land, and you become politically involved, you do not return “error,” you return a somatic marker which feels from the inside like a fact about the world. Thus, unless we are extremely confident of our development as rationalists, talking about politics seems risky precisely because we may underestimate its effects on our understanding.
But this leaves rather open the question of how we are supposed to develop as rationalists in this regard. Is practice always too dangerous? Or is it just practicing in a public forum like a community blog? What if it were only a minimally controversial political topic? What if it were pitched explicitly as an “overcome politics as the mind killer” training exercise? Could that help?
I understand the sentiment, but if we’re trying to overcome our biases/be less wrong, perhaps this is exactly the sort of practice we need?
Maybe, but it doesn’t take a lot of effort to find political opinion (it takes more effort to avoid being exposed to it!).
On the other hand, talking too much about politics on Less Wrong is a serious risk for the community. I don’t want this to be a place where people can come comfortable in the opinion that most people will share your political views, where people congratulate each other for how rational they are for having the same opinions. So the less signaling about political affiliation of members, the better.
Isn’t the safest option to always discuss the bad points from your own side?- possibly prefaced by a note explaining this. If I write something critical of the UK Conservative Party, or Hayek, you can be sure it’s because I genuinely think they have something wrong, and sufficiently wrong to over-come my in-group feelings, rather than simply being another attack on The Evil Enemy.
I recall one occasion where I was tempted to post about a conversation I had with one of the Ocupy Wallstreet crowd, but with all of the factual statements stripped away and only the logical structure of the conversation left (the point being to illustrate an observation that I made about dialogues between people with incompatible worldviews, and not about the Occupy Movement itself), but I ultimately abandoned the post half written as too unwieldy.
From Politics is the Mind-Killer:
Or how about Marxism at least? Exact same dynamic as the one you speak of (the claim that they speak for a silent oppressed majority that’s certain to win out in the end), but far less likely to explode in your face on this blog.
I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position. I decided to go with the Republican case because it was where I originally noticed it and as far as I can tell the most archetypal example. I considered it acceptable because I’m not actually saying the Republicans are wrong about any particular policy issue.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time? Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians). Yes, it makes it easier to read without getting angry, but it seems too potentially dangerous to come here and see something else accusing Christians every night. I don’t know what to do about it.
It’s always going to be dangerous to point out the hypocrisy of a powerful ideology, but doing so puts you in the position of the underdog, the spunky inquisitor who puts himself in harm’s way by displeasing the powerful force.
If you point out the warts of less-powerful ideologies, you not only risk displeasing them but make yourself vulnerable to being viewed as bigoted or a bully. Unless the group is one which greater society has labeled as “Leper! Outcast! Unclean!”, that will also tend to draw the disapproval of others, and without the benefits of underdogging.
The safest route, for your reputation though not your honor, is to attack a group that society wishes you to attack for conformity’s sake. No one wishes to speak well of such a group, no matter how limitedly, for fear of being associated with them, and everyone wishes to demonstrate to the rest that they loathe the despised ones.
That means, of course, that when you die you’ll go to the special Hell. The one reserved for rhetoricians, and people who didn’t like Firefly.
It might also be useful to point out hypocrisy and incoherence in a range of political points of view., instead just choosing one.
General question: LW has been poking at the question of whether we can discuss politics rationally for at least a couple of years now. Have we made any progress in our ability to do so?
I haven’t seen any evidence we have.
The probability of a staunch Marxist commenting on this blog seems to be vastly less than the probability of a staunch (non-religious) Republican doing so. We don’t want to drive away many potential readers on account of their surface positions before they have a chance to reconsider things. Also, we really don’t want an accidental political flamewar to start in a comment thread, so political examples should be chosen to tread on fewer current toes if at all possible.
No! This would make it even more likely to cause one of the bad outcomes above! This isn’t about “fairness”, it’s about prudence.
Again, I think people here generally have the basic political literacy to recognize the Marxist example.
I spend most of my time abroad, and come across more (or at least louder) Marxist sympathizers than conservative Republican sympathizers. This is probably not representative of people on this blog, and I will take it into account next time I post something.
I actually come across more Marxist sympathizers in my day-to-day life than I do conservative Republican sympathizers. But I spend most of my time abroad, so I should’ve realized that wasn’t representative.
So am I, but I’m not sure choosing Republicans is a better alternative—to me it feels a bit too much like taking a dig at the Hated Enemy, like flagging Less Wrong as belonging on a particular place on the political spectrum.
(Not that I have any better examples to propose)
I strongly second this. Reading this post (especially the bit about Republicans) tends to make me think about how I feel about contemporary american politics, and I don’t want to use that part of my brain, it’s bug-ridden and unreliable.
Still, it’s a great post. I’ve often got annoyed at how discussions turned into debating who deserved the most pity, and at the tacit assumption that it is in any way related to who is right. I wish there was a good way of pointing that out that didn’t make me sound like one of Them, the Evil Oppressors.
I understand the sentiment, but if we’re trying to overcome our biases/be less wrong, perhaps this is exactly the sort of practice we need?
Obviously, this this may not be the main point of any post where this issue arises, but are there things posters might do to encourage people not to think about things in damaging or counterproductive ways? Would a
Warning: vaguely political topic ahead; please exercise extreme caution in forming opinions
notice serve any purpose?
This reminds me of an American student wanting to improve their French who travels to France and learns math, science, history, etc. etc. in the French language. You greatly improve your French ability, but at the expense of greatly increasing the difficulty with which you learn everything else. Still, many people make the tradeoff and find the experience extremely rewarding. However, they generally do this after a few years of studying French in an American classroom. You would not want to do it if you were not already highly confident in your mastery of French.
So, are we confident enough in our ability to overcome political bias to consider studying abroad?
The point that there are tradeoffs involved here is well-made; but it’s not like anyone’s actually suggesting immersion in political topics (well, at least I’m not).
I’m suggesting that maybe it might not be such a bad thing to throw some French phrases into our general curriculum every now and then, particularly if the ideas happen to be more naturally expressed in French than in English. I’m also wondering whether, if we were going to do that, there are things we can do to minimize the damage that speaking French does to the learning experience.
(That sound you hear in the background is a strained metaphor snapping. Sorry.)
Actually I think you were doing quite well with it. Sadly, I’m about to break it on purpose. The trouble is that talking politics is worse than speaking French. If I speak a sentence in French which you do not understand, your verbal subroutines usually do not return bad data, they return “error” (In fact you may well commit a mind-projection fallacy and think that I am speaking gibberish. This is an interesting case of “how the algorithm feels from the inside” on which I may write later.) If I start talking about whether the Palestinians deserve their land, and you become politically involved, you do not return “error,” you return a somatic marker which feels from the inside like a fact about the world. Thus, unless we are extremely confident of our development as rationalists, talking about politics seems risky precisely because we may underestimate its effects on our understanding.
Agreed. And maybe it’s not worth the risk.
But this leaves rather open the question of how we are supposed to develop as rationalists in this regard. Is practice always too dangerous? Or is it just practicing in a public forum like a community blog? What if it were only a minimally controversial political topic? What if it were pitched explicitly as an “overcome politics as the mind killer” training exercise? Could that help?
Maybe, but it doesn’t take a lot of effort to find political opinion (it takes more effort to avoid being exposed to it!).
On the other hand, talking too much about politics on Less Wrong is a serious risk for the community. I don’t want this to be a place where people can come comfortable in the opinion that most people will share your political views, where people congratulate each other for how rational they are for having the same opinions. So the less signaling about political affiliation of members, the better.
Isn’t the safest option to always discuss the bad points from your own side?- possibly prefaced by a note explaining this. If I write something critical of the UK Conservative Party, or Hayek, you can be sure it’s because I genuinely think they have something wrong, and sufficiently wrong to over-come my in-group feelings, rather than simply being another attack on The Evil Enemy.
I recall one occasion where I was tempted to post about a conversation I had with one of the Ocupy Wallstreet crowd, but with all of the factual statements stripped away and only the logical structure of the conversation left (the point being to illustrate an observation that I made about dialogues between people with incompatible worldviews, and not about the Occupy Movement itself), but I ultimately abandoned the post half written as too unwieldy.