I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position. I decided to go with the Republican case because it was where I originally noticed it and as far as I can tell the most archetypal example. I considered it acceptable because I’m not actually saying the Republicans are wrong about any particular policy issue.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time? Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians). Yes, it makes it easier to read without getting angry, but it seems too potentially dangerous to come here and see something else accusing Christians every night. I don’t know what to do about it.
It’s always going to be dangerous to point out the hypocrisy of a powerful ideology, but doing so puts you in the position of the underdog, the spunky inquisitor who puts himself in harm’s way by displeasing the powerful force.
If you point out the warts of less-powerful ideologies, you not only risk displeasing them but make yourself vulnerable to being viewed as bigoted or a bully. Unless the group is one which greater society has labeled as “Leper! Outcast! Unclean!”, that will also tend to draw the disapproval of others, and without the benefits of underdogging.
The safest route, for your reputation though not your honor, is to attack a group that society wishes you to attack for conformity’s sake. No one wishes to speak well of such a group, no matter how limitedly, for fear of being associated with them, and everyone wishes to demonstrate to the rest that they loathe the despised ones.
That means, of course, that when you die you’ll go to the special Hell. The one reserved for rhetoricians, and people who didn’t like Firefly.
It might also be useful to point out hypocrisy and incoherence in a range of political points of view., instead just choosing one.
General question: LW has been poking at the question of whether we can discuss politics rationally for at least a couple of years now. Have we made any progress in our ability to do so?
I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position.
The probability of a staunch Marxist commenting on this blog seems to be vastly less than the probability of a staunch (non-religious) Republican doing so. We don’t want to drive away many potential readers on account of their surface positions before they have a chance to reconsider things. Also, we really don’t want an accidental political flamewar to start in a comment thread, so political examples should be chosen to tread on fewer current toes if at all possible.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time?
No! This would make it even more likely to cause one of the bad outcomes above! This isn’t about “fairness”, it’s about prudence.
Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
Again, I think people here generally have the basic political literacy to recognize the Marxist example.
I spend most of my time abroad, and come across more (or at least louder) Marxist sympathizers than conservative Republican sympathizers. This is probably not representative of people on this blog, and I will take it into account next time I post something.
I actually come across more Marxist sympathizers in my day-to-day life than I do conservative Republican sympathizers. But I spend most of my time abroad, so I should’ve realized that wasn’t representative.
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians)
So am I, but I’m not sure choosing Republicans is a better alternative—to me it feels a bit too much like taking a dig at the Hated Enemy, like flagging Less Wrong as belonging on a particular place on the political spectrum.
I did think about Marxism, but why would it be less likely to explode in my face? It’s also a modern political position. I decided to go with the Republican case because it was where I originally noticed it and as far as I can tell the most archetypal example. I considered it acceptable because I’m not actually saying the Republicans are wrong about any particular policy issue.
Would you prefer that next time I include two examples, one attacking either “side” of the political “spectrum” next time? Or can you think of some historical example that would be as immediately recognizable to everyone here as the Republican one?
I’m also getting a little sick of always using groups disliked by the entire Less Wrong community as examples (eg Christians). Yes, it makes it easier to read without getting angry, but it seems too potentially dangerous to come here and see something else accusing Christians every night. I don’t know what to do about it.
It’s always going to be dangerous to point out the hypocrisy of a powerful ideology, but doing so puts you in the position of the underdog, the spunky inquisitor who puts himself in harm’s way by displeasing the powerful force.
If you point out the warts of less-powerful ideologies, you not only risk displeasing them but make yourself vulnerable to being viewed as bigoted or a bully. Unless the group is one which greater society has labeled as “Leper! Outcast! Unclean!”, that will also tend to draw the disapproval of others, and without the benefits of underdogging.
The safest route, for your reputation though not your honor, is to attack a group that society wishes you to attack for conformity’s sake. No one wishes to speak well of such a group, no matter how limitedly, for fear of being associated with them, and everyone wishes to demonstrate to the rest that they loathe the despised ones.
That means, of course, that when you die you’ll go to the special Hell. The one reserved for rhetoricians, and people who didn’t like Firefly.
It might also be useful to point out hypocrisy and incoherence in a range of political points of view., instead just choosing one.
General question: LW has been poking at the question of whether we can discuss politics rationally for at least a couple of years now. Have we made any progress in our ability to do so?
I haven’t seen any evidence we have.
The probability of a staunch Marxist commenting on this blog seems to be vastly less than the probability of a staunch (non-religious) Republican doing so. We don’t want to drive away many potential readers on account of their surface positions before they have a chance to reconsider things. Also, we really don’t want an accidental political flamewar to start in a comment thread, so political examples should be chosen to tread on fewer current toes if at all possible.
No! This would make it even more likely to cause one of the bad outcomes above! This isn’t about “fairness”, it’s about prudence.
Again, I think people here generally have the basic political literacy to recognize the Marxist example.
I spend most of my time abroad, and come across more (or at least louder) Marxist sympathizers than conservative Republican sympathizers. This is probably not representative of people on this blog, and I will take it into account next time I post something.
I actually come across more Marxist sympathizers in my day-to-day life than I do conservative Republican sympathizers. But I spend most of my time abroad, so I should’ve realized that wasn’t representative.
So am I, but I’m not sure choosing Republicans is a better alternative—to me it feels a bit too much like taking a dig at the Hated Enemy, like flagging Less Wrong as belonging on a particular place on the political spectrum.
(Not that I have any better examples to propose)