Correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears that Mr. Raymond’s argument is roughly as follows:
Not all rapes are forcible.
Incidence of forcible rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
Therefore the incidence of rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to puzzle out the error in that one. Also note that there’s no mention of how “over-reporting” and “false allegations” are determined. My guess is that this is based on the conviction rate (I don’t know how else you’d do it), in which case you run into precisely the problems I mentioned.
No, his argument is more than that, I suggest you read it again. You seem to have skipped the part where he says that the “1 in 6” statistic covered both rapes and attempted rapes.
Basically he looks for where the “1 in 6” figure comes from, and finds a figure that are lower. You may criticize his methodology, but recalculating the value yourself seems like a better strategy than repeating a statistic of dubious origin.
* Not all rapes are forcible.
* Incidence of forcible rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
* Therefore the incidence of rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
The point here is that feminists tend to use a definition of “rape” that is vastly more general then what the word commonly refers (it tends to boil down to “any sex you regret in the morning”) to in order to inflate the statistics.
Also note that there’s no mention of how “over-reporting” and “false allegations” are determined.
I’m not sure, how are you determining your “extreme under-reporting”?
For under-reporting, look here. Even amongst high-school students, the incidence rate was as high as one in five women, and half of these had never told anyone about the incident.
The point here is that feminists tend to use a definition of “rape” that is vastly more general then what the word commonly refers (it tends to boil down to “any sex you regret in the morning”) to in order to inflate the statistics.
I’m sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. In fact this is precisely the kind of nonsense that gets used to systematically belittle and trivialize rape victims, and which leads to the under-reporting I mentioned.
The typical popular model of sexuality goes something like this. The woman has, i.e. possesses, sex; the man wants to get it from her. She, on the other hand, wants to hold onto it for the best mate she can find (in order to get married, etc.). Therefore his job is to put on the moves, and her job is to put on the brakes. However, if she resists, then she’s a bitch, because he deserves it after all, therefore she better not resist. If she does resist she might just be playing hard to get, because after all she really wants it, so as long as she’s not resisting too hard you can keep pushing anyway, either ignoring her protests or whining until she gives in. If she regrets it in the morning, well, she shouldn’t have been such a slut anyway. Because this is after all the sexual norm, she probably won’t even think of it as rape, and might never think to mention it to anyone.
Feminism makes the radical suggestion that this model is totally, balls-out insane and that maybe our notion of a healthy sexual interaction should necessarily include enthusiastic consent on both sides. If you want a more complete summary of the feminist position, “Yes Means Yes” is a good introductory source. I don’t think I can do as good a job of explaining as the authors can, so I’m going to leave this off here.
Though obviously the consequences aren’t as severe, it works the other way too: it can be the woman who has the model that she must play hard to get even when interested (thereby diminishing the information value of even the sincere rejections), and the man who views this mentality as batshit insane. (Consider the effects on the incentive profile and the kind of man this selects for.)
Yes, absolutely. This is actually where “Yes Means Yes” got its name: the authors were looking for a positive view of female sexuality, which is to say, the freedom for women not only to turn down propositions but also to fully explore their own desires.
But enthusiastic consent doesn’t always happen, because women routinely use male sexual aggressiveness as a filter. These women make the man do all of the initiation and all of the advancing, and may put up “last-minute resistance” to having sex the first time, because they only want to have sex with men who are aggressive enough to overcome this resistance.
This is probably related to the high prevalence of rape fantasies among women. Men seldom fantasize about being raped; surveys indicate most women have. And most romance novels depict the heroine being raped, usually by the hero. And I’ve had women ask me to pretend to rape them, because it gets them more excited.
And it’s also related to the strong attraction some women feel towards violent men. Even men who display violence only towards women. Men who are in prison for murdering their wives get unsolicited offers of marriage from women who haven’t met them. The more violent the murder was, the more solicitations they get.
The best thing women can do to make men stop acting aggressively towards women, is to stop rewarding men who act aggressively towards women.
(Of course, to do so would be to deliberately change evolved human values.)
The best thing the subset of women who reward men who act aggressively towards women can do is stop rewarding. Those who already don’t reward it don’t have “stop rewarding it” as an option.
True. But they do have the option of shunning other women who reward it. Or of mentioning it as an option, when they write books about male aggression.
That women should learn to take a more assertive role in their own sexual fulfillment is one of the main themes of Yes Means Yes, and is more or less the unanimous view of mainstream feminism today.
I have mixed feelings about this. In the first place, while I’ve seen this dominance-seeking theory tossed around, I’ve never heard it from a reliable source, nor backed by solid evidence. I consider it reasonably likely that there are some women out there who prefer to be pseudo-”forced” into sex, but I have no reason to think they are anything close to a majority—in fact, I’ve never met a woman who feels this way, though my social circle is not necessarily representative of the general population in this respect. As a model of typical human sexual roles, this is most likely false—a bit of wrongheaded folk psychology tossed around by Nice Guys™.
There’s always a significant danger, when making these sorts of claims, of victim-blaming: of putting the responsibility on rape victims to solve their own problems. I think you’re right, however, in identifying feminine sexual roles as part of a more general problem: even beside the rape epidemic, our sexual milieu is far from healthy. I think there is indeed a burden on women to learn to take the initiative and ask for what they want, simply because no one else can do it for them. Even mock rape scenes can be safely enacted if properly negotiated beforehand.
In the meantime, however, men can facilitate the process by healthier gender roles ourselves. Sure, a little bit of swagger is a turn-on, in men and women alike. But this is not the same thing as being pushy. A man who can coolly and confidently articulate his desires (when appropriate) in a way that doesn’t impose them on the object of his attraction becomes about an order of magnitude more attractive himself.
The typical popular model of sexuality goes something like this. The woman has, i.e. possesses, sex; the man wants to get it from her. She, on the other hand, wants to hold onto it for the best mate she can find (in order to get married, etc.). Therefore his job is to put on the moves, and her job is to put on the brakes. However, if she resists, then she’s a bitch, because he deserves it after all, therefore she better not resist. If she does resist she might just be playing hard to get, because after all she really wants it, so as long as she’s not resisting too hard you can keep pushing anyway, either ignoring her protests or whining until she gives in. If she regrets it in the morning, well, she shouldn’t have been such a slut anyway.
While this is a phenomenally stupid and dangerous position to hold, it does not in any way disprove or even address the claim that these studies are conflating actual rape, of the kind which causes serious trauma and involves forcing someone to have sex with you, (for a wide definition of “forcing”, of course,) with consensual sexual activity which is later “regretted”. I’m not going to endorse that claim, but talking about how some people interpret refusal as “playing hard to get” or selfishness or any of a number of things rather implies that you have pattern-matched Eugine—correctly, for all I know—onto your model of the misogynist Enemy rather than engaged with his point.
The point here is that feminists tend to use a definition of “rape” that is vastly more general then what the word commonly refers (it tends to boil down to “any sex you regret in the morning”) to in order to inflate the statistics.
I haven’t spent a whole bunch of time on this topic, but I’ve never actually run into a definition of rape that could be described that way. Citation?
The comment Skatche just made above I think does a pretty good job of explaining what feminists consider rape, and I think it’s easy to infer why non-feminists who only hear the cursory explanation get confused and feel that feminists are “exaggerating” it.
I’m actually aware of the concept of enthusiastic consent, and even considered including an explanation of it in my comment. It’s not obvious to me how that could look even remotely close to ‘any sex you regret the next morning’ - the principle of enthusiastic consent leads to a definition that doesn’t even particularly correlate with that unless you add a qualification that one of the partners must consider it rape in order for it to be rape.
Considering that some feminists have argued that all heterosexual sex is rape, he’s not exaggerating that much. The ones who make the studies he was referencing do things like making questionnaires that ask questions like “Have you ever pushed a girl into bed to make her have sex with you?” and counting that as rape to inflate the statistics, because more rapes = more money for the rape services they work for.
If I came to believe that I’d made someone have sex with me by applying force, and we hadn’t previously negotiated the terms of that scene, I would consider that an instance of rape and I would feel pretty awful about it.
So I don’t reject the results of that survey on those grounds.
I understand that you do reject it, and presumably you would similarly disagree about that hypothetical case. A lot of people would. I understand why, and I don’t want to get into a discussion of which of us is correct because I don’t expect it to lead anywhere useful.
But you should at least be aware that your position isn’t universally held, even among men who believe in the existence of consensual heterosexual sex.
Well, obviously there’s a difference between violently throwing someone into a bed, and joking around and playfully pushing them on the shoulder to signal them to get into the bed, but my point is that the studies conflate the two and everything in between them and classify them all as rape. Just check “yes” in the box, and voila, you’re a rapist.
I agree that there’s a difference between those two things. I agree with you that conflating the difference between those two things is problematic.
I disagree with you that the example you give conflates that difference.
If I had pushed someone onto a bed to signal to them that I wanted to have sex with them (I’ve undoubtedly done this many times, though I can’t currently remember specific examples) I would not say “yes” if asked whether I’d ever pushed someone onto a bed to make them have sex with me.
The key word for me is “make.”
If I make you have sex with me, that’s different from playfully encouraging you to have sex with me.
(nods) Surveys are problematic that way, in general. The only way I know of to get around it is to phrase every question several different ways and look for variation among the answers based on the phrasing.
The safest move is probably to simply discard any question where the answer depends too much on the phrasing, although in practice that probably means discarding all survey results ever.
Mostly, survey results are good for comparing results on the same survey over time.
Upvoted for actually bothering to listen to what feminists are saying. That model has long since fallen out of favour, though, for obvious reasons: see e.g. Rethinking Rape by Ann J. Cahill. The “enthusiastic consent” model is currently one of the most popular, and I think it captures pretty accurately what we should consider a healthy, versus an unhealthy or coercive, sexual encounter.
The “enthusiastic consent” model is currently one of the most popular, and I think it captures pretty accurately what we should consider a healthy, versus an unhealthy or coercive, sexual encounter.
That … sounds like it would predictably overestimate the amount of rapes. Unhelpful though this may be, not everyone has adopted “enthusiastic consent” in their day-to-day lives.
That … sounds like it would predictably overestimate the amount of rapes. Unhelpful though this may be, not everyone has adopted “enthusiastic consent” in their day-to-day lives.
I, for example, occasionally merely agree amicably to have sex, without any enthusiasm. (For example if it the third time that day.) I think I’ve even agreed reluctantly at some point. Yet I haven’t been raped and anyone who tried to tell me I had been raped because I did not give “enthusiastic consent” is both wrong and grossly disrespectful of me and my right to make choices about what I do with my own body.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears that Mr. Raymond’s argument is roughly as follows:
Not all rapes are forcible.
Incidence of forcible rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
Therefore the incidence of rape among women is lower than 1 in 6.
I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to puzzle out the error in that one. Also note that there’s no mention of how “over-reporting” and “false allegations” are determined. My guess is that this is based on the conviction rate (I don’t know how else you’d do it), in which case you run into precisely the problems I mentioned.
No, his argument is more than that, I suggest you read it again. You seem to have skipped the part where he says that the “1 in 6” statistic covered both rapes and attempted rapes.
Basically he looks for where the “1 in 6” figure comes from, and finds a figure that are lower. You may criticize his methodology, but recalculating the value yourself seems like a better strategy than repeating a statistic of dubious origin.
The point here is that feminists tend to use a definition of “rape” that is vastly more general then what the word commonly refers (it tends to boil down to “any sex you regret in the morning”) to in order to inflate the statistics.
I’m not sure, how are you determining your “extreme under-reporting”?
For under-reporting, look here. Even amongst high-school students, the incidence rate was as high as one in five women, and half of these had never told anyone about the incident.
I’m sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. In fact this is precisely the kind of nonsense that gets used to systematically belittle and trivialize rape victims, and which leads to the under-reporting I mentioned.
The typical popular model of sexuality goes something like this. The woman has, i.e. possesses, sex; the man wants to get it from her. She, on the other hand, wants to hold onto it for the best mate she can find (in order to get married, etc.). Therefore his job is to put on the moves, and her job is to put on the brakes. However, if she resists, then she’s a bitch, because he deserves it after all, therefore she better not resist. If she does resist she might just be playing hard to get, because after all she really wants it, so as long as she’s not resisting too hard you can keep pushing anyway, either ignoring her protests or whining until she gives in. If she regrets it in the morning, well, she shouldn’t have been such a slut anyway. Because this is after all the sexual norm, she probably won’t even think of it as rape, and might never think to mention it to anyone.
Feminism makes the radical suggestion that this model is totally, balls-out insane and that maybe our notion of a healthy sexual interaction should necessarily include enthusiastic consent on both sides. If you want a more complete summary of the feminist position, “Yes Means Yes” is a good introductory source. I don’t think I can do as good a job of explaining as the authors can, so I’m going to leave this off here.
Though obviously the consequences aren’t as severe, it works the other way too: it can be the woman who has the model that she must play hard to get even when interested (thereby diminishing the information value of even the sincere rejections), and the man who views this mentality as batshit insane. (Consider the effects on the incentive profile and the kind of man this selects for.)
Yes, absolutely. This is actually where “Yes Means Yes” got its name: the authors were looking for a positive view of female sexuality, which is to say, the freedom for women not only to turn down propositions but also to fully explore their own desires.
But enthusiastic consent doesn’t always happen, because women routinely use male sexual aggressiveness as a filter. These women make the man do all of the initiation and all of the advancing, and may put up “last-minute resistance” to having sex the first time, because they only want to have sex with men who are aggressive enough to overcome this resistance.
This is probably related to the high prevalence of rape fantasies among women. Men seldom fantasize about being raped; surveys indicate most women have. And most romance novels depict the heroine being raped, usually by the hero. And I’ve had women ask me to pretend to rape them, because it gets them more excited.
And it’s also related to the strong attraction some women feel towards violent men. Even men who display violence only towards women. Men who are in prison for murdering their wives get unsolicited offers of marriage from women who haven’t met them. The more violent the murder was, the more solicitations they get.
The best thing women can do to make men stop acting aggressively towards women, is to stop rewarding men who act aggressively towards women.
(Of course, to do so would be to deliberately change evolved human values.)
The best thing the subset of women who reward men who act aggressively towards women can do is stop rewarding. Those who already don’t reward it don’t have “stop rewarding it” as an option.
True. But they do have the option of shunning other women who reward it. Or of mentioning it as an option, when they write books about male aggression.
That women should learn to take a more assertive role in their own sexual fulfillment is one of the main themes of Yes Means Yes, and is more or less the unanimous view of mainstream feminism today.
I have mixed feelings about this. In the first place, while I’ve seen this dominance-seeking theory tossed around, I’ve never heard it from a reliable source, nor backed by solid evidence. I consider it reasonably likely that there are some women out there who prefer to be pseudo-”forced” into sex, but I have no reason to think they are anything close to a majority—in fact, I’ve never met a woman who feels this way, though my social circle is not necessarily representative of the general population in this respect. As a model of typical human sexual roles, this is most likely false—a bit of wrongheaded folk psychology tossed around by Nice Guys™.
There’s always a significant danger, when making these sorts of claims, of victim-blaming: of putting the responsibility on rape victims to solve their own problems. I think you’re right, however, in identifying feminine sexual roles as part of a more general problem: even beside the rape epidemic, our sexual milieu is far from healthy. I think there is indeed a burden on women to learn to take the initiative and ask for what they want, simply because no one else can do it for them. Even mock rape scenes can be safely enacted if properly negotiated beforehand.
In the meantime, however, men can facilitate the process by healthier gender roles ourselves. Sure, a little bit of swagger is a turn-on, in men and women alike. But this is not the same thing as being pushy. A man who can coolly and confidently articulate his desires (when appropriate) in a way that doesn’t impose them on the object of his attraction becomes about an order of magnitude more attractive himself.
While this is a phenomenally stupid and dangerous position to hold, it does not in any way disprove or even address the claim that these studies are conflating actual rape, of the kind which causes serious trauma and involves forcing someone to have sex with you, (for a wide definition of “forcing”, of course,) with consensual sexual activity which is later “regretted”. I’m not going to endorse that claim, but talking about how some people interpret refusal as “playing hard to get” or selfishness or any of a number of things rather implies that you have pattern-matched Eugine—correctly, for all I know—onto your model of the misogynist Enemy rather than engaged with his point.
I haven’t spent a whole bunch of time on this topic, but I’ve never actually run into a definition of rape that could be described that way. Citation?
The comment Skatche just made above I think does a pretty good job of explaining what feminists consider rape, and I think it’s easy to infer why non-feminists who only hear the cursory explanation get confused and feel that feminists are “exaggerating” it.
I’m actually aware of the concept of enthusiastic consent, and even considered including an explanation of it in my comment. It’s not obvious to me how that could look even remotely close to ‘any sex you regret the next morning’ - the principle of enthusiastic consent leads to a definition that doesn’t even particularly correlate with that unless you add a qualification that one of the partners must consider it rape in order for it to be rape.
Considering that some feminists have argued that all heterosexual sex is rape, he’s not exaggerating that much. The ones who make the studies he was referencing do things like making questionnaires that ask questions like “Have you ever pushed a girl into bed to make her have sex with you?” and counting that as rape to inflate the statistics, because more rapes = more money for the rape services they work for.
If I came to believe that I’d made someone have sex with me by applying force, and we hadn’t previously negotiated the terms of that scene, I would consider that an instance of rape and I would feel pretty awful about it.
So I don’t reject the results of that survey on those grounds.
I understand that you do reject it, and presumably you would similarly disagree about that hypothetical case. A lot of people would. I understand why, and I don’t want to get into a discussion of which of us is correct because I don’t expect it to lead anywhere useful.
But you should at least be aware that your position isn’t universally held, even among men who believe in the existence of consensual heterosexual sex.
Well, obviously there’s a difference between violently throwing someone into a bed, and joking around and playfully pushing them on the shoulder to signal them to get into the bed, but my point is that the studies conflate the two and everything in between them and classify them all as rape. Just check “yes” in the box, and voila, you’re a rapist.
I agree that there’s a difference between those two things. I agree with you that conflating the difference between those two things is problematic.
I disagree with you that the example you give conflates that difference.
If I had pushed someone onto a bed to signal to them that I wanted to have sex with them (I’ve undoubtedly done this many times, though I can’t currently remember specific examples) I would not say “yes” if asked whether I’d ever pushed someone onto a bed to make them have sex with me.
The key word for me is “make.”
If I make you have sex with me, that’s different from playfully encouraging you to have sex with me.
Exactly so.
I do think that wording the question that way is a bit questionable, though, since it can easily be misread.
(nods) Surveys are problematic that way, in general. The only way I know of to get around it is to phrase every question several different ways and look for variation among the answers based on the phrasing.
The safest move is probably to simply discard any question where the answer depends too much on the phrasing, although in practice that probably means discarding all survey results ever.
Mostly, survey results are good for comparing results on the same survey over time.
Upvoted for actually bothering to listen to what feminists are saying. That model has long since fallen out of favour, though, for obvious reasons: see e.g. Rethinking Rape by Ann J. Cahill. The “enthusiastic consent” model is currently one of the most popular, and I think it captures pretty accurately what we should consider a healthy, versus an unhealthy or coercive, sexual encounter.
That … sounds like it would predictably overestimate the amount of rapes. Unhelpful though this may be, not everyone has adopted “enthusiastic consent” in their day-to-day lives.
I, for example, occasionally merely agree amicably to have sex, without any enthusiasm. (For example if it the third time that day.) I think I’ve even agreed reluctantly at some point. Yet I haven’t been raped and anyone who tried to tell me I had been raped because I did not give “enthusiastic consent” is both wrong and grossly disrespectful of me and my right to make choices about what I do with my own body.
In fairness, they would probably just add you to rape statistics without telling you. Much less offensive.