I just tried to pack too much into it. Guess it didn’t work too well.
First of all, you’re referring to Luke’s idea of elephant, but I prefer Robin’s idea of elephant which rings more true to me. In Robin’s idea, the conscious mind isn’t like a person with distinct goals riding atop the elephant. It’s more of a mask that the elephant wears, or a public relations department.
The elephant is responsible for decision-making. If you try to bypass it and put the conscious mind in control, you will likely hurt yourself or deceive yourself. But the idea, though wrong-headed, is alluring and comes up again and again. It’s a “hippie dream”.
The conscious mind is responsible for communication. Everyone is using it this way, and they are right—it’s nature’s way. Trying to bypass it in favor of “elephant-to-elephant communication” is another hippie dream. We should be thankful that it doesn’t happen more often.
PR and sales departments are crucial. We are rightly wary of anyone trying to bypass them and talk to the company directly. If you really want to offer a mutually profitable trade, use the approved channels.
The elephant is responsible for decision-making. If you try to bypass it and put the conscious mind in control, you will most likely hurt yourself or deceive yourself. But the idea, though wrong-headed, is very attractive and comes up again and again. It’s a “hippie dream”.
I’m happy with this, although I don’t understand the use of the term “hippie dream” to describe it.
The conscious mind is responsible for communication. Everyone is using it this way, and they are right—it’s nature’s way. Trying to bypass it in favor of “elephant-to-elephant communication” is another hippie dream. We should be thankful that it doesn’t happen more often.
I strongly disagree with this. I have seen people engage in elephant-to-elephant communication, and I’ve done a little of it myself, and I think it’s important, although I also want to respect other people’s wishes to not do it. What’s your crux here?
I’m happy with high bandwidth communication when it’s approved by the PR departments of all involved (like exchanging smiles, or teaching someone to play an instrument, or whatever). What I’m not okay with is suppressing your PR department or asking others to do the same. People often claim improvement from such practices but I don’t notice them improving. If anything, they get bad habits, like asking “what do you feel?” instead of reading people. Not to mention that the first effect of lowering criticism is often lowering criticism toward the practice itself.
Compare with something like debating, philosophy, or LW rationality - practices that pit your verbal skills against resistance, making you stronger and more fun to interact with. It’s like the difference between aikido (a martial art where you train only on people who don’t resist) and BJJ (a martial art where every workout involves fighting).
What I’m not okay with is suppressing your PR department or asking others to do the same. People often claim improvement from such practices but I don’t notice them improving. If anything, they get bad habits, like asking “what do you feel?” instead of reading people. Not to mention that the first effect of lowering criticism is often lowering criticism toward the practice itself.
So, I definitely think there’s an uncanny valley of bad authentic relating, analogous to the valley of bad rationality. It sounds like you’ve mostly interacted with people who haven’t gotten out of it; I claim I’ve interacted with people who have, and that I’m mostly out of it myself, and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Many people desperately want their PR departments suppressed; that’s why they drink, or do drugs, or go to live concerts, etc. It’s a valuable service you can offer some people to do this for them without using substances.
and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Not saying you’re wrong, but one reason I’m skeptical about “practices” is that they often seem to make people overvalue them. Have you seen Richard_Kennaway’s comment on the circling thread which compares talking with NVC folks to talking with chatbots? Also see his comment on the kensho thread describing how people’s claimed benefits from meditation are illusory.
To your last point, do you think people drink at parties to suppress their PR departments and get the ugly truth out? To me it looks more like they want a credible excuse to send certain PR messages that aren’t necessarily true, like “I’m fun and free”. That’s also part of nature’s way and I’m happy with it.
My current sense is that Qiaochu has indeed gotten more fun to interact with, and I know of at least two other cases in which I think authentic relating and related practices have helped someone be a lot more fun to be around (from my perspective). I also know of at least two cases where I experience interacting with someone as much worse than I used to, probably as a result of authentic relating. So the overall effect might just be noise, but I do think the effect size is large enough to make that somewhat unlikely.
I just tried to pack too much into it. Guess it didn’t work too well.
First of all, you’re referring to Luke’s idea of elephant, but I prefer Robin’s idea of elephant which rings more true to me. In Robin’s idea, the conscious mind isn’t like a person with distinct goals riding atop the elephant. It’s more of a mask that the elephant wears, or a public relations department.
The elephant is responsible for decision-making. If you try to bypass it and put the conscious mind in control, you will likely hurt yourself or deceive yourself. But the idea, though wrong-headed, is alluring and comes up again and again. It’s a “hippie dream”.
The conscious mind is responsible for communication. Everyone is using it this way, and they are right—it’s nature’s way. Trying to bypass it in favor of “elephant-to-elephant communication” is another hippie dream. We should be thankful that it doesn’t happen more often.
PR and sales departments are crucial. We are rightly wary of anyone trying to bypass them and talk to the company directly. If you really want to offer a mutually profitable trade, use the approved channels.
Thanks, I’m much happier with this comment.
I’m happy with this, although I don’t understand the use of the term “hippie dream” to describe it.
I strongly disagree with this. I have seen people engage in elephant-to-elephant communication, and I’ve done a little of it myself, and I think it’s important, although I also want to respect other people’s wishes to not do it. What’s your crux here?
I’m happy with high bandwidth communication when it’s approved by the PR departments of all involved (like exchanging smiles, or teaching someone to play an instrument, or whatever). What I’m not okay with is suppressing your PR department or asking others to do the same. People often claim improvement from such practices but I don’t notice them improving. If anything, they get bad habits, like asking “what do you feel?” instead of reading people. Not to mention that the first effect of lowering criticism is often lowering criticism toward the practice itself.
Compare with something like debating, philosophy, or LW rationality - practices that pit your verbal skills against resistance, making you stronger and more fun to interact with. It’s like the difference between aikido (a martial art where you train only on people who don’t resist) and BJJ (a martial art where every workout involves fighting).
So, I definitely think there’s an uncanny valley of bad authentic relating, analogous to the valley of bad rationality. It sounds like you’ve mostly interacted with people who haven’t gotten out of it; I claim I’ve interacted with people who have, and that I’m mostly out of it myself, and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Many people desperately want their PR departments suppressed; that’s why they drink, or do drugs, or go to live concerts, etc. It’s a valuable service you can offer some people to do this for them without using substances.
Not saying you’re wrong, but one reason I’m skeptical about “practices” is that they often seem to make people overvalue them. Have you seen Richard_Kennaway’s comment on the circling thread which compares talking with NVC folks to talking with chatbots? Also see his comment on the kensho thread describing how people’s claimed benefits from meditation are illusory.
To your last point, do you think people drink at parties to suppress their PR departments and get the ugly truth out? To me it looks more like they want a credible excuse to send certain PR messages that aren’t necessarily true, like “I’m fun and free”. That’s also part of nature’s way and I’m happy with it.
My current sense is that Qiaochu has indeed gotten more fun to interact with, and I know of at least two other cases in which I think authentic relating and related practices have helped someone be a lot more fun to be around (from my perspective). I also know of at least two cases where I experience interacting with someone as much worse than I used to, probably as a result of authentic relating. So the overall effect might just be noise, but I do think the effect size is large enough to make that somewhat unlikely.
Thank you! This doesn’t change my mind outright (seen too many examples to the contrary) but it’s a good data point and I’ll remember it.
Went digging, and found it here:
https://www.lesserwrong.com/posts/aFyWFwGWBsP5DZbHF/circling#cgtM3SRHyFwbzBa56