What I’m not okay with is suppressing your PR department or asking others to do the same. People often claim improvement from such practices but I don’t notice them improving. If anything, they get bad habits, like asking “what do you feel?” instead of reading people. Not to mention that the first effect of lowering criticism is often lowering criticism toward the practice itself.
So, I definitely think there’s an uncanny valley of bad authentic relating, analogous to the valley of bad rationality. It sounds like you’ve mostly interacted with people who haven’t gotten out of it; I claim I’ve interacted with people who have, and that I’m mostly out of it myself, and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Many people desperately want their PR departments suppressed; that’s why they drink, or do drugs, or go to live concerts, etc. It’s a valuable service you can offer some people to do this for them without using substances.
and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Not saying you’re wrong, but one reason I’m skeptical about “practices” is that they often seem to make people overvalue them. Have you seen Richard_Kennaway’s comment on the circling thread which compares talking with NVC folks to talking with chatbots? Also see his comment on the kensho thread describing how people’s claimed benefits from meditation are illusory.
To your last point, do you think people drink at parties to suppress their PR departments and get the ugly truth out? To me it looks more like they want a credible excuse to send certain PR messages that aren’t necessarily true, like “I’m fun and free”. That’s also part of nature’s way and I’m happy with it.
My current sense is that Qiaochu has indeed gotten more fun to interact with, and I know of at least two other cases in which I think authentic relating and related practices have helped someone be a lot more fun to be around (from my perspective). I also know of at least two cases where I experience interacting with someone as much worse than I used to, probably as a result of authentic relating. So the overall effect might just be noise, but I do think the effect size is large enough to make that somewhat unlikely.
So, I definitely think there’s an uncanny valley of bad authentic relating, analogous to the valley of bad rationality. It sounds like you’ve mostly interacted with people who haven’t gotten out of it; I claim I’ve interacted with people who have, and that I’m mostly out of it myself, and that it has made me stronger and more fun to interact with. (And better at reading people.)
Many people desperately want their PR departments suppressed; that’s why they drink, or do drugs, or go to live concerts, etc. It’s a valuable service you can offer some people to do this for them without using substances.
Not saying you’re wrong, but one reason I’m skeptical about “practices” is that they often seem to make people overvalue them. Have you seen Richard_Kennaway’s comment on the circling thread which compares talking with NVC folks to talking with chatbots? Also see his comment on the kensho thread describing how people’s claimed benefits from meditation are illusory.
To your last point, do you think people drink at parties to suppress their PR departments and get the ugly truth out? To me it looks more like they want a credible excuse to send certain PR messages that aren’t necessarily true, like “I’m fun and free”. That’s also part of nature’s way and I’m happy with it.
My current sense is that Qiaochu has indeed gotten more fun to interact with, and I know of at least two other cases in which I think authentic relating and related practices have helped someone be a lot more fun to be around (from my perspective). I also know of at least two cases where I experience interacting with someone as much worse than I used to, probably as a result of authentic relating. So the overall effect might just be noise, but I do think the effect size is large enough to make that somewhat unlikely.
Thank you! This doesn’t change my mind outright (seen too many examples to the contrary) but it’s a good data point and I’ll remember it.
Went digging, and found it here:
https://www.lesserwrong.com/posts/aFyWFwGWBsP5DZbHF/circling#cgtM3SRHyFwbzBa56