Well if you like I will restate my claim as: Every movie, and almost every book is propaganda for the improbable religious belief that all real world groups are equal in the sense of interchangeable.
Thank you. Now we start making progress.
You seem to have conceded that every movie, and almost every book is propaganda for the improbable religious belief that all real world groups are equal in the sense of interchangeable.
You then seem to argue that that is a good thing. Even supposing it to be a good thing, it is evidence for the original proposition that writers and playwrights in Elizabethan times had more freedom of expression than they do now, that today’s England is in this sense more like a theocracy than Elizabethan England was.
Similarly, Cromwell is remembered as a religious oppressor for attempting to ban Christmas, or at least the pagan elements of Christmas which are nearly all of it, but he let the Jews back into England, and under him there were one thousand varieties of Christianity contending on equal terms, passionately debating every contentious issue, including issues we would now think of as political, such as whether inequality reflected God’s will, and whether economic inequality was natural. Today the Jews are under considerable and increasing pressure to convert to progressivism, a belief system that is proving increasingly incompatible with remaining Jewish, and orthodox Jews depart England because of state and private persecution.
Observe that Shakespeare lets Jack Cade argue in favor of economic equality between classes, and rather than Shakespeare asserting the then orthodox religious and political position that economic inequality between classes is divinely ordained, instead shows us that if everything is up for grabs, much grabbing will ensue, and the result will not be very equal at all. Jack Cade gets to make good arguments for economic equality of classes unopposed, even though the playwright in effect replies that human nature makes this impractical.
Imagine a film today where a Nazi gets to make good arguments against equality of races unopposed, perhaps pointing to the fate of Detroit as compelling evidence of foolish and destructive it is to let n**s move into white neighborhoods. It is unthinkable that such a movie could be made. Even if the film subsequently presented some counter argument, the Nazi would not be allowed to make a single good and persuasive argument.
Stop feeding the troll, everyone. Feeding trolls encourages them and that is not good for LW. If this goes on I will start banning/deleting Sam’s comments and I would recommend that all further replies by LWians to his comments be downvoted because feeding trolls is not good for LW. Once a troll comment is downvoted below −3, the community’s job is done, textual replies are not necessary.
If it’s decided that a certain user should stop posting, it’s possible to ban individual comments and indicate this fact to the user, to discourage further activity. Eliezer used to do this occasionally in the past, it works. What’s not clear is socially acceptable procedure for making this decision, outside Eliezer’s decree.
I think we need to establish the norm of banning same-failure-mode comments from users who keep posting despite getting systematically and severely downvoted, if they still persist after a public warning that is simultaneously a place for potential appeal from the community (to overrule moderator’s decision).
Today the Jews are under considerable and increasing pressure to convert to progressivism, a belief system that is proving increasingly incompatible with remaining Jewish, and orthodox Jews depart England because of state and private persecution.
Ok. As a former Orthodox Jew, this sort of claim is complete and utter bullshit. And there’s really no other word for it. Aside from personal experience, I’ve read quite a bit by Jonathan Sacks the current Chief Rabbi of Great Britain, and the functional head of the national organization of Orthodox, non-charedi and non-chassidic synagogues in Great Britain. He’s extremely vocal about anything perceived of as a threat to Orthodoxy and his own politics are by British standards right-wing. So if Jonathan Sacks hasn’t claimed there’s any such problem, the idea that there are Orthodox Jews leaving England because of pressure to become progressive… yeah. The closest issue is that some people in Great Britain have called for the banning of ritualized slaughter as used for halal and kosher meat because it causes unnecessary pain to the animals. Note that this movement has so far in England had zero success.
And I have numbers to prove it. The Orthodox population in England, especially the ultra-orthodox population is increasingly rapidly.
You’ve made a lot of egregiously false statements before but even by your standards this is ridiculous. To illustrate how ridiculous this is I’m going to pull a page out of Scott Aaronson’s book. I will give you $100 if you can find a single modern source that backs up your claim that Orthodox Jews are leaving England because of “pressure to convert to progressivism” (or any functionally identical statement) that anyone on LW (other than you and it should be someone who already has commented here before) considers remotely reliable.
The question of whether “Jews are under considerable and increasing pressure to convert to progressivism” is not relevant for LW (or even this thread, really), so figuring out what the facts are is the wrong thing to do. We need to be able to switch in the mode of considering relevance of a question, while temporarily ignoring it on object level. This seems like serious vulnerability of the forum, anyone willing to write it up?
We need to be able to switch in the mode of considering relevance of a question, while temporarily ignoring it on object level. This seems like serious vulnerability of the forum, anyone willing to write it up?
I don’t think this particular case is good evidence that this is a problem, for two reasons. The first is that the most likely reason the relevance of the question was not remarked on here is that it is so obviously irrelevant that it went without saying. The second is that the rings of Saturn’s are giant fried onion rings. Delicious.
I don’t think this particular case is good evidence that this is a problem
I don’t either, I think it’s a good example. I’m not arguing for this being a problem, I’m pointing out that it looks like one.
The first is that the most likely reason the relevance of the question was not remarked on here is that it is so obviously irrelevant that it went without saying
Remarking on irrelevance of a question is irrelevant in itself, one should act on that by ignoring the question on object level.
My point was that not answering is the goal, while pointing out irrelevance is only of instrumental value towards that goal, so pointing out irrelevance, but failing to act on it (that is, failing to actually ignore the question), is a case of lost purpose. And the instrumental step being unnecessary (where irrelevance is obvious) doesn’t negate from its goal.
Contradicting false statements, even irrelevant ones, is a strong impulse in our culture (by which I mean LW culture and the broader subcultures from which it draws many of its readers). But it doesn’t yet look to me like we overemphasize this.
Your recent correction of lukeprog on his use of the phrase “Aumann agreement” seemed to me to be an example of this “correcting impulse”. I think it was good for you to make the correction. I would have pointed out the erroneous usage if someone had not already done so. But the incorrectness of the phrase was irrelevant to the point of his post.
Or are you using “relevance” in a sense in which lukeprog’s use of the phrase “Aumann agreement” was relevant?
I’m not sure that I’m getting your point. The theme of your links is that the word “rational” is overused around here. Is it your point that “Aumann agreement” is also overused?
See the zeroth virtue.
Are you referring to the virtue that Eliezer calls “the void”? I’m not seeing the relevance.
Is it your point that “Aumann agreement” is also overused?
Not really, that was poor word choice on my part. Only literally is it overused, in that one excessive use constitutes overuse.
It’s that such words have a warm feel to them, so they are used even when the anticipation controlling/more literal/more technical meaning is not intended. The overuse causes confusion by muddying the meaning, and increases the risk that I will name the way to understand the world and achieving my goals instead of actually understanding the world and achieving my goals.
This type of thing is common because one such overuse is common, “rational”. The specific overuse of “Aumann’s agreement theorem”, the same type of thing, is not common.
I have several times seen it described as a rule that rationalists update towards each other’s estimates, which is distressing. Clearly, they may share evidence and conclude something is more or less likely than either originally thought. A way to make sure one is learning and updating is to avoid using words for ideal methods, lest they cause one to think one is using them when one isn’t.
Are you referring to the virtue that Eliezer calls “the void”
Yes. It’s only belatedly and reluctantly named there so it can be an example of its own point, to explain relationships among concepts rather than try and explain by using labels for rationality.
Right, answering with silence seems inferior to pointing out irrelevance where appropriate (even if superior to responding on object level), it leaves the matter unsettled. So this is possibly a step that shouldn’t be skipped even where irrelevance is obvious, just like with something obviously wrong. This is a natural analogy: what happens is that instead of one question, we consider two questions simultaneously: whether something is right, and whether working on figuring out whether it’s right is a good idea.
For Aumann agreement, the topic is discussed on LW, so certainly isn’t irrelevant.
I am not convinced this undermines your overall point, as “racism is bad” is still the overall message of the movies, but there are certainly racist characters (sometimes even sympathetic ones) who make statements and arguments that go unchallenged.
You seem to have conceded that every movie, and almost every book is propaganda for the improbable religious belief that all real world groups are equal in the sense of interchangeable.
You then seem to argue that that is a good thing.
Not exactly, for either of the two sentences. I’ll reply further (and one last time) in a personal message, later today.
You seem to have conceded that every movie, and almost every book is propaganda for the improbable religious belief that all real world groups are equal in the sense of interchangeable.
You then seem to argue that that is a good thing. Even supposing it to be a good thing, it is evidence for the original proposition that writers and playwrights in Elizabethan times had more freedom of expression than they do now, that today’s England is in this sense more like a theocracy than Elizabethan England was.
Similarly, Cromwell is remembered as a religious oppressor for attempting to ban Christmas, or at least the pagan elements of Christmas which are nearly all of it, but he let the Jews back into England, and under him there were one thousand varieties of Christianity contending on equal terms, passionately debating every contentious issue, including issues we would now think of as political, such as whether inequality reflected God’s will, and whether economic inequality was natural. Today the Jews are under considerable and increasing pressure to convert to progressivism, a belief system that is proving increasingly incompatible with remaining Jewish, and orthodox Jews depart England because of state and private persecution.
Observe that Shakespeare lets Jack Cade argue in favor of economic equality between classes, and rather than Shakespeare asserting the then orthodox religious and political position that economic inequality between classes is divinely ordained, instead shows us that if everything is up for grabs, much grabbing will ensue, and the result will not be very equal at all. Jack Cade gets to make good arguments for economic equality of classes unopposed, even though the playwright in effect replies that human nature makes this impractical.
Imagine a film today where a Nazi gets to make good arguments against equality of races unopposed, perhaps pointing to the fate of Detroit as compelling evidence of foolish and destructive it is to let n**s move into white neighborhoods. It is unthinkable that such a movie could be made. Even if the film subsequently presented some counter argument, the Nazi would not be allowed to make a single good and persuasive argument.
Stop feeding the troll, everyone. Feeding trolls encourages them and that is not good for LW. If this goes on I will start banning/deleting Sam’s comments and I would recommend that all further replies by LWians to his comments be downvoted because feeding trolls is not good for LW. Once a troll comment is downvoted below −3, the community’s job is done, textual replies are not necessary.
Thank you.
About @#$@ time.
Why doesn’t LW have a ban-user feature yet?
If it’s decided that a certain user should stop posting, it’s possible to ban individual comments and indicate this fact to the user, to discourage further activity. Eliezer used to do this occasionally in the past, it works. What’s not clear is socially acceptable procedure for making this decision, outside Eliezer’s decree.
I think we need to establish the norm of banning same-failure-mode comments from users who keep posting despite getting systematically and severely downvoted, if they still persist after a public warning that is simultaneously a place for potential appeal from the community (to overrule moderator’s decision).
Ok. As a former Orthodox Jew, this sort of claim is complete and utter bullshit. And there’s really no other word for it. Aside from personal experience, I’ve read quite a bit by Jonathan Sacks the current Chief Rabbi of Great Britain, and the functional head of the national organization of Orthodox, non-charedi and non-chassidic synagogues in Great Britain. He’s extremely vocal about anything perceived of as a threat to Orthodoxy and his own politics are by British standards right-wing. So if Jonathan Sacks hasn’t claimed there’s any such problem, the idea that there are Orthodox Jews leaving England because of pressure to become progressive… yeah. The closest issue is that some people in Great Britain have called for the banning of ritualized slaughter as used for halal and kosher meat because it causes unnecessary pain to the animals. Note that this movement has so far in England had zero success.
And I have numbers to prove it. The Orthodox population in England, especially the ultra-orthodox population is increasingly rapidly.
You’ve made a lot of egregiously false statements before but even by your standards this is ridiculous. To illustrate how ridiculous this is I’m going to pull a page out of Scott Aaronson’s book. I will give you $100 if you can find a single modern source that backs up your claim that Orthodox Jews are leaving England because of “pressure to convert to progressivism” (or any functionally identical statement) that anyone on LW (other than you and it should be someone who already has commented here before) considers remotely reliable.
The question of whether “Jews are under considerable and increasing pressure to convert to progressivism” is not relevant for LW (or even this thread, really), so figuring out what the facts are is the wrong thing to do. We need to be able to switch in the mode of considering relevance of a question, while temporarily ignoring it on object level. This seems like serious vulnerability of the forum, anyone willing to write it up?
I don’t think this particular case is good evidence that this is a problem, for two reasons. The first is that the most likely reason the relevance of the question was not remarked on here is that it is so obviously irrelevant that it went without saying. The second is that the rings of Saturn’s are giant fried onion rings. Delicious.
I don’t either, I think it’s a good example. I’m not arguing for this being a problem, I’m pointing out that it looks like one.
Remarking on irrelevance of a question is irrelevant in itself, one should act on that by ignoring the question on object level.
Logically rude statements tend to be irrelevancies. Should they never be pointed out?
My point was that not answering is the goal, while pointing out irrelevance is only of instrumental value towards that goal, so pointing out irrelevance, but failing to act on it (that is, failing to actually ignore the question), is a case of lost purpose. And the instrumental step being unnecessary (where irrelevance is obvious) doesn’t negate from its goal.
Okay. That makes sense.
Contradicting false statements, even irrelevant ones, is a strong impulse in our culture (by which I mean LW culture and the broader subcultures from which it draws many of its readers). But it doesn’t yet look to me like we overemphasize this.
Your recent correction of lukeprog on his use of the phrase “Aumann agreement” seemed to me to be an example of this “correcting impulse”. I think it was good for you to make the correction. I would have pointed out the erroneous usage if someone had not already done so. But the incorrectness of the phrase was irrelevant to the point of his post.
Or are you using “relevance” in a sense in which lukeprog’s use of the phrase “Aumann agreement” was relevant?
In my opinion, overused magic words deserve correction.
See the zeroth virtue.
I’m not sure that I’m getting your point. The theme of your links is that the word “rational” is overused around here. Is it your point that “Aumann agreement” is also overused?
Are you referring to the virtue that Eliezer calls “the void”? I’m not seeing the relevance.
Not really, that was poor word choice on my part. Only literally is it overused, in that one excessive use constitutes overuse.
It’s that such words have a warm feel to them, so they are used even when the anticipation controlling/more literal/more technical meaning is not intended. The overuse causes confusion by muddying the meaning, and increases the risk that I will name the way to understand the world and achieving my goals instead of actually understanding the world and achieving my goals.
This type of thing is common because one such overuse is common, “rational”. The specific overuse of “Aumann’s agreement theorem”, the same type of thing, is not common.
I have several times seen it described as a rule that rationalists update towards each other’s estimates, which is distressing. Clearly, they may share evidence and conclude something is more or less likely than either originally thought. A way to make sure one is learning and updating is to avoid using words for ideal methods, lest they cause one to think one is using them when one isn’t.
Yes. It’s only belatedly and reluctantly named there so it can be an example of its own point, to explain relationships among concepts rather than try and explain by using labels for rationality.
Agreement is an indicator subject to Goodhart’s law.
(You’ve lost the “magic”.)
I cast magic song!
Right, answering with silence seems inferior to pointing out irrelevance where appropriate (even if superior to responding on object level), it leaves the matter unsettled. So this is possibly a step that shouldn’t be skipped even where irrelevance is obvious, just like with something obviously wrong. This is a natural analogy: what happens is that instead of one question, we consider two questions simultaneously: whether something is right, and whether working on figuring out whether it’s right is a good idea.
For Aumann agreement, the topic is discussed on LW, so certainly isn’t irrelevant.
Anyone on LessWrong other than sam?
Yes. that should be clear but I’m editing it in to make it explicit.
Try American History X or The Believer.
I am not convinced this undermines your overall point, as “racism is bad” is still the overall message of the movies, but there are certainly racist characters (sometimes even sympathetic ones) who make statements and arguments that go unchallenged.
Not exactly, for either of the two sentences. I’ll reply further (and one last time) in a personal message, later today.