Um, what logic? For physics and mathematics the claim that “our X-ical intuitions are our only source of X” is simply false: for physics we can do experiments and observe the real world,
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
whereas mathematics… well, there’s more than one way to view it, but if you take mathematics to consist merely of formal systems, then those systems have no “source” as such.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems? Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
I hope you’re not suggesting that deontology, or any other system, has some resolution to all of this?
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology. Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems?
Why indeed? Mathematics does sometimes examine formal systems that have no direct tie to anything in the physical world, because they are mathematically interesting. Sometimes those systems turn out to be real-world-useful.
Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way. Therefore, that is how they work. Why do we care? Well, because that’s an approach that allows us to discover/invent new math, and apply that math to solve problems.
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false. If you were claiming clearly false things then that would make this conversation less interesting. ;)
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Where does your belief that observing the world will lead us to true beliefs come from?
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way.
First, where do those definitions come from? Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false.
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
… and many posts in the Sequences. (The posts/essays themselves aren’t an answer to “where does this belief come from”, but their content is.)
First, where do those definitions come from?
We made ’em up.
Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
I am passingly familiar with these systems. I don’t know why you would claim that they have anything to do with deontology, since the entire motivation for accepting superrationality is “it leads to better consequences”. If you follow unbreakable rules because doing so leads to better outcomes, then you are a consequentialist.
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
Um, ok, fair enough, so in that case how about we stop dancing around the issue, and I will just ask straight out:
Do you believe that deontology has a resolution to the aforementioned issues? Or no?
Upvoted for spotting something probably non-obvious: the parallel between Kantian ethics and certain decision theories seems quite interesting and never occurred to me. It’s probably worth exploring how deep it runs, perhaps the idea that being a rational agent in itself compels you inescapably to follow rules of a certain form might have some sort of reflection in these decision theories.
Also, [why] do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I certainly would hope that there doesn’t turn out to be a universal cosmic moral law derivable from nothing but logic, if it happens to be a law I really hate like “you must kill kittens”. :)
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems? Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology. Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Why indeed? Mathematics does sometimes examine formal systems that have no direct tie to anything in the physical world, because they are mathematically interesting. Sometimes those systems turn out to be real-world-useful.
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way. Therefore, that is how they work. Why do we care? Well, because that’s an approach that allows us to discover/invent new math, and apply that math to solve problems.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false. If you were claiming clearly false things then that would make this conversation less interesting. ;)
Where does your belief that observing the world will lead us to true beliefs come from?
First, where do those definitions come from? Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/the-simple-truth
… and many posts in the Sequences. (The posts/essays themselves aren’t an answer to “where does this belief come from”, but their content is.)
We made ’em up.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/rs/created_already_in_motion/
I am passingly familiar with these systems. I don’t know why you would claim that they have anything to do with deontology, since the entire motivation for accepting superrationality is “it leads to better consequences”. If you follow unbreakable rules because doing so leads to better outcomes, then you are a consequentialist.
Um, ok, fair enough, so in that case how about we stop dancing around the issue, and I will just ask straight out:
Do you believe that deontology has a resolution to the aforementioned issues? Or no?
That article ultimately comes down to relying on our (evolved) intuition, which is exactly my point.
Once you self-modify to always follow those rules, you are no longer a consequentialist.
Quiet possibly.
Upvoted for spotting something probably non-obvious: the parallel between Kantian ethics and certain decision theories seems quite interesting and never occurred to me. It’s probably worth exploring how deep it runs, perhaps the idea that being a rational agent in itself compels you inescapably to follow rules of a certain form might have some sort of reflection in these decision theories.
I certainly would hope that there doesn’t turn out to be a universal cosmic moral law derivable from nothing but logic, if it happens to be a law I really hate like “you must kill kittens”. :)