Really, to me it looks more like they take one moral intuition extrapolate it way beyond it’s context and disregard the rest.
Which moral intuition is that...?
Also you do realize there are bookshelves full of philosophers who’ve reached different conclusions?
Yes, I studied some of them in college. My assessment of academic philosophers is that most of them are talking nonsense most of the time. There are exceptions, of course. If you want to talk about the positions of any particular philosopher(s), we can do that (although perhaps for that it might be worthwhile to start a new Discussion thread, or something). But just the fact that many philosophers think some particular thing isn’t strong evidence of anything interesting or convincing.
Would you apply the same logic to claim that our physical intuitions as our only source of physics? Or to use an even more obvious parallel, that our mathematical intuitions are our only source of mathematics. In a sense these statements are indeed true, but it is certainly misleading to phrase it that way.
Um, what logic? For physics and mathematics the claim that “our X-ical intuitions are our only source of X” is simply false: for physics we can do experiments and observe the real world, whereas mathematics… well, there’s more than one way to view it, but if you take mathematics to consist merely of formal systems, then those systems have no “source” as such. Insofar as any of those formal systems describe any aspect of reality, we can look at reality and see that.
For morality there just isn’t anything else, beyond our intuitions.
Also, if you say moral intuition is our only source of morality, if people’s moral intuitions differ, are they obligated to obey their personal moral intuition If so, does that mean it’s moral for me to murder if my intuition says so? If not, whose intuition should we use?
Moral laws don’t exist anywhere outside of human brains, so in one sense this entire line of questioning is meaningless. It’s not like moral laws can actually compel you to do one thing or another, regardless of whether you are a consequentialist or a deontologist or what. Moral laws have force insofar as they are convincing to any humans who have the power to enforce them, whether this be humans deciding to follow a moral law in their own lives, or deciding to impose a moral law on others, etc.
If people’s moral intuitions differ then I guess those people will have to find some way to resolve that difference. (Or maybe not? In some cases they can simply agree to go their separate ways. But I suppose you’d say, and I’d agree, that those are not the interesting cases, and that we’re discussing those cases where the disagreement on morality causes conflict.)
I mean, I can tell you what tends to happen in practice when people disagree on morality. I can tell you what I in particular will do in any given case. But asking what people should do in cases of moral disagreement is just passing the buck.
I hope you’re not suggesting that deontology, or any other system, has some resolution to all of this? It doesn’t seem like you are, though; I get the sense that you are merely objecting to the suggestion that consequentialism has the answers, where deontology does not. If so, then I grant that it does not. However, these are not the questions on which basis I judge deontology to be inferior.
Rather, my point was that even if we grant that there are, or should be, absolute, unbreakable moral laws that judge actions, regardless of consequences (i.e. accept the basic premise of deontology), it’s entirely unclear what those laws should be, or where they come from, or how we should figure out what they are, or why these laws and not some others, etc. Consequentialism doesn’t have this problem. Furthermore, because moral intuitions are the only means by which we can judge moral systems, the question of whether a moral system satisfies our moral intuitions is relevant to whether we accept it. Deontology, imo, fails in this regard to a much greater degree than does consequentialism.
Um, what logic? For physics and mathematics the claim that “our X-ical intuitions are our only source of X” is simply false: for physics we can do experiments and observe the real world,
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
whereas mathematics… well, there’s more than one way to view it, but if you take mathematics to consist merely of formal systems, then those systems have no “source” as such.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems? Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
I hope you’re not suggesting that deontology, or any other system, has some resolution to all of this?
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology. Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems?
Why indeed? Mathematics does sometimes examine formal systems that have no direct tie to anything in the physical world, because they are mathematically interesting. Sometimes those systems turn out to be real-world-useful.
Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way. Therefore, that is how they work. Why do we care? Well, because that’s an approach that allows us to discover/invent new math, and apply that math to solve problems.
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false. If you were claiming clearly false things then that would make this conversation less interesting. ;)
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Where does your belief that observing the world will lead us to true beliefs come from?
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way.
First, where do those definitions come from? Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false.
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
… and many posts in the Sequences. (The posts/essays themselves aren’t an answer to “where does this belief come from”, but their content is.)
First, where do those definitions come from?
We made ’em up.
Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
I am passingly familiar with these systems. I don’t know why you would claim that they have anything to do with deontology, since the entire motivation for accepting superrationality is “it leads to better consequences”. If you follow unbreakable rules because doing so leads to better outcomes, then you are a consequentialist.
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
Um, ok, fair enough, so in that case how about we stop dancing around the issue, and I will just ask straight out:
Do you believe that deontology has a resolution to the aforementioned issues? Or no?
Upvoted for spotting something probably non-obvious: the parallel between Kantian ethics and certain decision theories seems quite interesting and never occurred to me. It’s probably worth exploring how deep it runs, perhaps the idea that being a rational agent in itself compels you inescapably to follow rules of a certain form might have some sort of reflection in these decision theories.
Also, [why] do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I certainly would hope that there doesn’t turn out to be a universal cosmic moral law derivable from nothing but logic, if it happens to be a law I really hate like “you must kill kittens”. :)
Which moral intuition is that...?
Yes, I studied some of them in college. My assessment of academic philosophers is that most of them are talking nonsense most of the time. There are exceptions, of course. If you want to talk about the positions of any particular philosopher(s), we can do that (although perhaps for that it might be worthwhile to start a new Discussion thread, or something). But just the fact that many philosophers think some particular thing isn’t strong evidence of anything interesting or convincing.
Um, what logic? For physics and mathematics the claim that “our X-ical intuitions are our only source of X” is simply false: for physics we can do experiments and observe the real world, whereas mathematics… well, there’s more than one way to view it, but if you take mathematics to consist merely of formal systems, then those systems have no “source” as such. Insofar as any of those formal systems describe any aspect of reality, we can look at reality and see that.
For morality there just isn’t anything else, beyond our intuitions.
Moral laws don’t exist anywhere outside of human brains, so in one sense this entire line of questioning is meaningless. It’s not like moral laws can actually compel you to do one thing or another, regardless of whether you are a consequentialist or a deontologist or what. Moral laws have force insofar as they are convincing to any humans who have the power to enforce them, whether this be humans deciding to follow a moral law in their own lives, or deciding to impose a moral law on others, etc.
If people’s moral intuitions differ then I guess those people will have to find some way to resolve that difference. (Or maybe not? In some cases they can simply agree to go their separate ways. But I suppose you’d say, and I’d agree, that those are not the interesting cases, and that we’re discussing those cases where the disagreement on morality causes conflict.)
I mean, I can tell you what tends to happen in practice when people disagree on morality. I can tell you what I in particular will do in any given case. But asking what people should do in cases of moral disagreement is just passing the buck.
I hope you’re not suggesting that deontology, or any other system, has some resolution to all of this? It doesn’t seem like you are, though; I get the sense that you are merely objecting to the suggestion that consequentialism has the answers, where deontology does not. If so, then I grant that it does not. However, these are not the questions on which basis I judge deontology to be inferior.
Rather, my point was that even if we grant that there are, or should be, absolute, unbreakable moral laws that judge actions, regardless of consequences (i.e. accept the basic premise of deontology), it’s entirely unclear what those laws should be, or where they come from, or how we should figure out what they are, or why these laws and not some others, etc. Consequentialism doesn’t have this problem. Furthermore, because moral intuitions are the only means by which we can judge moral systems, the question of whether a moral system satisfies our moral intuitions is relevant to whether we accept it. Deontology, imo, fails in this regard to a much greater degree than does consequentialism.
Because our physical intuitions tell us that should work.
Then why are we focusing on those particular formal systems? Also where do our ideas about how formal systems should work come from?
Well, look at the game theory based decision theories, notice that they seem to be converging on something resembling Kantian deontology. Also, what do you hope that, don’t you want the issue resolved?
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Why indeed? Mathematics does sometimes examine formal systems that have no direct tie to anything in the physical world, because they are mathematically interesting. Sometimes those systems turn out to be real-world-useful.
What do you mean, “how formal systems should work”? Formal systems are defined in a certain way. Therefore, that is how they work. Why do we care? Well, because that’s an approach that allows us to discover/invent new math, and apply that math to solve problems.
Really? Kantian deontology, and definitely not rule consequentialism?
I meant, by that, that such a claim would be clearly false. If you were claiming clearly false things then that would make this conversation less interesting. ;)
Where does your belief that observing the world will lead us to true beliefs come from?
First, where do those definitions come from? Second, as Lewis Carrol showed a definition of a formal system is not the same as a formal system since definitions of a formal system don’t have the power to force you to draw conclusions from premises.
Yes, you may want to look into decision theories many of which take superrationality as their staring point. Or do you mean taking the Categorical Imperative as a rule consequentialist rule?
Careful, just because you can’t think of a way to resolve a philosophical problem, doesn’t mean there is to way to resolve it.
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/the-simple-truth
… and many posts in the Sequences. (The posts/essays themselves aren’t an answer to “where does this belief come from”, but their content is.)
We made ’em up.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/rs/created_already_in_motion/
I am passingly familiar with these systems. I don’t know why you would claim that they have anything to do with deontology, since the entire motivation for accepting superrationality is “it leads to better consequences”. If you follow unbreakable rules because doing so leads to better outcomes, then you are a consequentialist.
Um, ok, fair enough, so in that case how about we stop dancing around the issue, and I will just ask straight out:
Do you believe that deontology has a resolution to the aforementioned issues? Or no?
That article ultimately comes down to relying on our (evolved) intuition, which is exactly my point.
Once you self-modify to always follow those rules, you are no longer a consequentialist.
Quiet possibly.
Upvoted for spotting something probably non-obvious: the parallel between Kantian ethics and certain decision theories seems quite interesting and never occurred to me. It’s probably worth exploring how deep it runs, perhaps the idea that being a rational agent in itself compels you inescapably to follow rules of a certain form might have some sort of reflection in these decision theories.
I certainly would hope that there doesn’t turn out to be a universal cosmic moral law derivable from nothing but logic, if it happens to be a law I really hate like “you must kill kittens”. :)