Well, there are several reasons why I’m not incessantly shouting all my contrarian views from the rooftops.
For start, yes, obviously I am concerned with the possible reputational consequences. But even ignoring that, the problem is that arguing for contrarian views may well have the effect of making them even more disreputable and strengthening the mainstream consensus, if it’s done in a way that signals low status, eccentricity, immorality, etc., or otherwise enables the mainstream advocates to score a rhetorical victory in the ensuing debate (regardless of the substance of the arguments). Thus, even judging purely by how much you’re likely to move people’s opinions closer or further from the truth, you should avoid arguing for contrarian views unless the situation seems especially favorable, in the sense that you’ll be able to present your case competently and in front of a suitable audience.
Moreover, there is always the problem of whether you can trust your own contrarian opinions. After all, even if you take the least favorable view of the respectable opinion and the academic mainstream, it is still the case that most contrarians are deluded in even crazier ways. So how do you know that you haven’t in fact become a crackpot yourself? This is why rather than making a piecemeal catalog of delusional mainstream views, I would prefer to have a more general framework for estimating how reliable the mainstream opinion is likely to be on a particular subject given various factors and circumstances, and what general social, economic, political, and other mechanisms have practical influence in this regard. Effort spent on obtaining such insight is, in my opinion, far more useful than attacking seemingly wrong mainstream opinions one by one.
These latter questions should, in my opinion, be very high (if not on the top) of the list of priorities of people who are concerned with overcoming bias and increasing their rationality and the accuracy of their beliefs, and one of my major disappointments with LW is that attempts to open discussion about these matters invariably fall flat. (This despite the fact that such discussions could be productive even without opening any especially dangerous and charged topics, and despite the fact that on LW one regularly hears frustrated accounts of the mainstream being impervious to argument on topics such as existential risk or cryonics. I find it especially puzzling that smart people who are concerned about the latter have no interest in investigating the underlying more general and systematic problems.)
Thus, even judging purely by how much you’re likely to move people’s opinions closer or further from the truth, you should avoid arguing for contrarian views unless the situation seems especially favorable, in the sense that you’ll be able to present your case competently and in front of a suitable audience.
Doesn’t this push in the direction of holding contrarian views being useless except as a personal hobby? If so, why argue against mainstream delusional views at all (even as a collection without specifying what they are)? Is the point of your comment that you think it’s possible to make progress by highlighting broad phenomena about the reliability of mainstream views so that people can work out the implications on their own without there being a need for explicit public discussion?
Moreover, there is always the problem of whether you can trust your own contrarian opinions. After all, even if you take the least favorable view of the respectable opinion and the academic mainstream, it is still the case that most contrarians are deluded in even crazier ways. So how do you know that you haven’t in fact become a crackpot yourself?
A natural method to avoid becoming a crackpot is to reveal one’s views for possible critique in a gradual and carefully argued fashion, adjusting them as people point out weaknesses. Of course it might not be a good idea to reveal one’s views regardless (self-preservation; opportunity cost of time) but I don’t think that danger of being a crackpot is a good reason.
These latter questions should, in my opinion, be very high (if not on the top) of the list of priorities of people who are concerned with overcoming bias and increasing their rationality and the accuracy of their beliefs, and one of my major disappointments with LW is that attempts to open discussion about these matters invariably fall flat.
Is the point of your comment that you think it’s possible to make progress by highlighting broad phenomena about the reliability of mainstream views so that people can work out the implications on their own without there being a need for explicit public discussion?
Basically, I believe that exploring the general questions about how mainstream views are generated in practice and what are the implications for their reliability is by far the most fruitful direction for people interested in increasing the accuracy of their beliefs across the board. Of course, if you have a particular interest in some question, you have to grapple with the concrete issues involved, and also a general exploration must be based on concrete case studies. But attacking particular mainstream views head-on may well be counterproductive in every sense, as I noted above.
A natural method to avoid becoming a crackpot is to reveal one’s views for possible critique in a gradual and carefully argued fashion, adjusting them as people point out weaknesses. Of course it might not be a good idea to reveal one’s views regardless (self-preservation; opportunity cost of time) but I don’t think that danger of being a crackpot is a good reason.
That’s assuming you have discussion partners who are knowledgeable, open-minded, and patient enough. However, such people are the most difficult to find exactly in those areas where you’re faced with the Scylla of a deeply flawed mainstream and the Charybdis of even worse crackpot contrarians.
(Please also see my reply to Nick Tarleton, who asked a similar question as the rest of your comment.)
Basically, I believe that exploring the general questions about how mainstream views are generated in practice and what are the implications for their reliability is by far the most fruitful direction for people interested in increasing the accuracy of their beliefs across the board. Of course, if you have a particular interest in some question, you have to grapple with the concrete issues involved, and also a general exploration must be based on concrete case studies. But attacking particular mainstream views head-on may well be counterproductive in every sense, as I noted above.
This is fair; you’ve made your position clear, thanks.
That’s assuming you have discussion partners who are knowledgeable, open-minded, and patient enough. However, such people are the most difficult to find exactly in those areas where you’re faced with the Scylla of a deeply flawed mainstream and the Charybdis of even worse crackpot contrarians.
Agree in general. How about Less Wrong in particular?
Agree in general. How about Less Wrong in particular?
Well, LW is great for discussing a concrete problem if you manage to elicit some interest in it, both because of people’s high general intellectual skills and because of low propensity to emotionally driven reactions that are apt to derail the discussion, even in fairly charged topics (well, except for gender-related ones, I guess). So, yes, LW is very good for this sort of reality-checking if you manage to find people interested in your topic.
You can take any topic where it’s impossible to make sense of the existing academic literature (and other influential high-status sources), or where the respectable mainstream consensus seems to clash with reality. When discussions about such topics are opened on LW, often the logical next step would be to ask about the more general underlying problems that give rise to these situations, instead of just focusing on the arguments about particular problems in isolation. (And even without a concrete motivation, such questions should directly follow from LW’s mission statement.) Yet I see few, if any attempts to ask such general questions on LW, and my occasional attempts to open discussion along these lines, even when highly upvoted, don’t elicit much in terms of interesting arguments and insight.
As an illustration, we can take an innocent and mainstream problematic topic like e.g. the health questions of lifestyle such as nutrition, exercise, etc. These topics have been discussed on LW many times, and it seems evident that the mainstream academic literature is a complete mess, with potential gems of useful insight buried under mountains of nonsense work, and authoritative statements of expert opinion given without proper justification. Yet I see no attempt to ask a straightforward follow-up question: since these areas operate under the official bureaucratic system that’s supposed to be guaranteed to produce valid science, then what exactly went wrong? And what implications does it have for other areas where we take the official output of this same bureaucratic system as ironclad evidence?
Of course, when it comes to topics that are more dangerous and ideologically charged, the underlying problems are likely to be different and more severe. One can reasonably argue that such topics are best avoided on a forum like LW, both because they’re likely to stir up bad blood and because of the potential bad signaling and reputational consequences for the forum as an institution. But even if we take the most restrictive attitude towards such topics, there are still many others that can be used as case studies for gaining insight about the systematic underlying problems.
When discussions about such topics are opened on LW, often the logical next step would be to ask about the more general underlying problems that give rise to these situations, instead of just focusing on the arguments about particular problems in isolation. (And even without a concrete motivation, such questions should directly follow from LW’s mission statement.) Yet I see few, if any attempts to ask such general questions on LW, and my occasional attempts to open discussion along these lines, even when highly upvoted, don’t elicit much in terms of interesting arguments and insight.
Your own points have struck me as on the mark; but I haven’t had much to add.
There are some interesting general comments that I could make based on my experience in the mathematical community in particular. I guess here I have some tendency toward self-preservation myself; I don’t want to offend acquaintances who might be cast in negative life by my analysis. (Would be happy to share my views privately if you’re interested though.) I guess my attitude here is that there’s little upside to making my remarks public. The behaviors that I perceive to be dysfunctional are sufficiently deeply entrenched so that whatever I would say would have little expected value.
The main upside would be helping others attain intellectual enlightenment, but although I myself greatly enjoy the satisfaction of being intellectual enlightenment, I’m not sure that intellectual enlightenment is very valuable from a global perspective. Being right is of little use without being influential. In general the percentage of people who are right (or interested in being right) on a given topic where a contrarian position is right is sufficiently small so that the critical mass that it would take to change things isn’t there and nor would an incremental change in this percentage make a difference.
The reason why the above point has so much weight in my mind is that despite my very high interest in learning about a variety of things and in forming accurate views on a variety of subjects; I haven’t achieved very much. It’s not clear whether having accurate views of the world has been more helpful or harmful to me in achieving my goals. The jury is still very much out and things may change; but the very fact that it’s possible for me to have this attitude is a strong indication that knowledge and accurate views on a variety of things can be useless on their own.
The best cure against such prideful attitudes is to ask yourself what you have to show in terms of practical accomplishments and status if you’re so much more rational and intellectually advanced than ordinary people. If they are so stupid and delusional to be deserving of such intolerance and contempt, then an enlightened and intellectually superior person should be able to run circles around them and easily come out on top, no?
Regarding:
As an illustration, we can take an innocent and mainstream problematic topic like e.g. the health questions of lifestyle such as nutrition, exercise, etc. These topics have been discussed on LW many times, and it seems evident that the mainstream academic literature is a complete mess, with potential gems of useful insight buried under mountains of nonsense work, and authoritative statements of expert opinion given without proper justification. Yet I see no attempt to ask a straightforward follow-up question: since these areas operate under the official bureaucratic system that’s supposed to be guaranteed to produce valid science, then what exactly went wrong? And what implications does it have for other areas where we take the official output of this same bureaucratic system as ironclad evidence?
I made a comment that you may find relevant here; I would characterize nutrition/exercise/etc. as fields that are obviously important and which therefore attract many researchers/corporations/hobbyists/etc. having the effect of driving high quality of researchers out of the field on account of bad associations.
Another factor may be absence of low hanging fruit (which you reference in your top level post); it could be that the diversity of humans is sufficiently great so that it’s difficult to make general statements about what’s healthy/unhealthy.
I agree with what you said about main stream fields being diluted, but offer an interesting corollary to that. Economic motives compel various gurus and nutritionists to make claims to the average joe, and the average joe, or even the educated joe cannot sort through them. However, if one looks in more narrow fields, one can obtain more specific answers without so much trash. For example, powerlifting. This is not a huge market nor one you can benefit financially from that much. If one is trying to sell something or get something published, he can’t just say “I pretty much agree with X”, he needs to somehow distinguish himself. But when that motive is eliminated you can get more consistency in recommendations and have a greater chance to actually hit upon what works.
While you might not be interested in powerlifting, reading in more niche areas can help filter out profit/status seeking charlatans, and can allow one to see the similarities across disciplines. So while I’ve read about bodybuilding, powerlifting, and endurance sports, and their associated nutritional advice, I would never read a book about “being fit.”
As an aside, I recently had this horrible moment of realization. Much of the fitness advise given out is just so incredibly wrong, and I am able to realize that because I have a strong background in that subject. But I realized, 90% of the stuff I read about are areas I don’t have a great background in. I could be accepting really wrong facts in other areas that are just as wrong as the nutritional facts I scoff at, and I would never learn of my error.
Well, there are several reasons why I’m not incessantly shouting all my contrarian views from the rooftops.
For start, yes, obviously I am concerned with the possible reputational consequences. But even ignoring that, the problem is that arguing for contrarian views may well have the effect of making them even more disreputable and strengthening the mainstream consensus, if it’s done in a way that signals low status, eccentricity, immorality, etc., or otherwise enables the mainstream advocates to score a rhetorical victory in the ensuing debate (regardless of the substance of the arguments). Thus, even judging purely by how much you’re likely to move people’s opinions closer or further from the truth, you should avoid arguing for contrarian views unless the situation seems especially favorable, in the sense that you’ll be able to present your case competently and in front of a suitable audience.
Moreover, there is always the problem of whether you can trust your own contrarian opinions. After all, even if you take the least favorable view of the respectable opinion and the academic mainstream, it is still the case that most contrarians are deluded in even crazier ways. So how do you know that you haven’t in fact become a crackpot yourself? This is why rather than making a piecemeal catalog of delusional mainstream views, I would prefer to have a more general framework for estimating how reliable the mainstream opinion is likely to be on a particular subject given various factors and circumstances, and what general social, economic, political, and other mechanisms have practical influence in this regard. Effort spent on obtaining such insight is, in my opinion, far more useful than attacking seemingly wrong mainstream opinions one by one.
These latter questions should, in my opinion, be very high (if not on the top) of the list of priorities of people who are concerned with overcoming bias and increasing their rationality and the accuracy of their beliefs, and one of my major disappointments with LW is that attempts to open discussion about these matters invariably fall flat. (This despite the fact that such discussions could be productive even without opening any especially dangerous and charged topics, and despite the fact that on LW one regularly hears frustrated accounts of the mainstream being impervious to argument on topics such as existential risk or cryonics. I find it especially puzzling that smart people who are concerned about the latter have no interest in investigating the underlying more general and systematic problems.)
Doesn’t this push in the direction of holding contrarian views being useless except as a personal hobby? If so, why argue against mainstream delusional views at all (even as a collection without specifying what they are)? Is the point of your comment that you think it’s possible to make progress by highlighting broad phenomena about the reliability of mainstream views so that people can work out the implications on their own without there being a need for explicit public discussion?
A natural method to avoid becoming a crackpot is to reveal one’s views for possible critique in a gradual and carefully argued fashion, adjusting them as people point out weaknesses. Of course it might not be a good idea to reveal one’s views regardless (self-preservation; opportunity cost of time) but I don’t think that danger of being a crackpot is a good reason.
I’m not sure what you have in mind here. Your post titled Some Heuristics for Evaluating the Soundness of the Academic Mainstream in Unfamiliar Fields was highly upvoted and I myself would be happy to read more along similar lines. Are there examples that you’d point to of attempts to open discussion about these matters falling flat?
Basically, I believe that exploring the general questions about how mainstream views are generated in practice and what are the implications for their reliability is by far the most fruitful direction for people interested in increasing the accuracy of their beliefs across the board. Of course, if you have a particular interest in some question, you have to grapple with the concrete issues involved, and also a general exploration must be based on concrete case studies. But attacking particular mainstream views head-on may well be counterproductive in every sense, as I noted above.
That’s assuming you have discussion partners who are knowledgeable, open-minded, and patient enough. However, such people are the most difficult to find exactly in those areas where you’re faced with the Scylla of a deeply flawed mainstream and the Charybdis of even worse crackpot contrarians.
(Please also see my reply to Nick Tarleton, who asked a similar question as the rest of your comment.)
This is fair; you’ve made your position clear, thanks.
Agree in general. How about Less Wrong in particular?
Well, LW is great for discussing a concrete problem if you manage to elicit some interest in it, both because of people’s high general intellectual skills and because of low propensity to emotionally driven reactions that are apt to derail the discussion, even in fairly charged topics (well, except for gender-related ones, I guess). So, yes, LW is very good for this sort of reality-checking if you manage to find people interested in your topic.
What’s an example? (I mostly ask so as to have some more specific idea of what topics you’re referring to.)
You can take any topic where it’s impossible to make sense of the existing academic literature (and other influential high-status sources), or where the respectable mainstream consensus seems to clash with reality. When discussions about such topics are opened on LW, often the logical next step would be to ask about the more general underlying problems that give rise to these situations, instead of just focusing on the arguments about particular problems in isolation. (And even without a concrete motivation, such questions should directly follow from LW’s mission statement.) Yet I see few, if any attempts to ask such general questions on LW, and my occasional attempts to open discussion along these lines, even when highly upvoted, don’t elicit much in terms of interesting arguments and insight.
As an illustration, we can take an innocent and mainstream problematic topic like e.g. the health questions of lifestyle such as nutrition, exercise, etc. These topics have been discussed on LW many times, and it seems evident that the mainstream academic literature is a complete mess, with potential gems of useful insight buried under mountains of nonsense work, and authoritative statements of expert opinion given without proper justification. Yet I see no attempt to ask a straightforward follow-up question: since these areas operate under the official bureaucratic system that’s supposed to be guaranteed to produce valid science, then what exactly went wrong? And what implications does it have for other areas where we take the official output of this same bureaucratic system as ironclad evidence?
Of course, when it comes to topics that are more dangerous and ideologically charged, the underlying problems are likely to be different and more severe. One can reasonably argue that such topics are best avoided on a forum like LW, both because they’re likely to stir up bad blood and because of the potential bad signaling and reputational consequences for the forum as an institution. But even if we take the most restrictive attitude towards such topics, there are still many others that can be used as case studies for gaining insight about the systematic underlying problems.
Your own points have struck me as on the mark; but I haven’t had much to add.
There are some interesting general comments that I could make based on my experience in the mathematical community in particular. I guess here I have some tendency toward self-preservation myself; I don’t want to offend acquaintances who might be cast in negative life by my analysis. (Would be happy to share my views privately if you’re interested though.) I guess my attitude here is that there’s little upside to making my remarks public. The behaviors that I perceive to be dysfunctional are sufficiently deeply entrenched so that whatever I would say would have little expected value.
The main upside would be helping others attain intellectual enlightenment, but although I myself greatly enjoy the satisfaction of being intellectual enlightenment, I’m not sure that intellectual enlightenment is very valuable from a global perspective. Being right is of little use without being influential. In general the percentage of people who are right (or interested in being right) on a given topic where a contrarian position is right is sufficiently small so that the critical mass that it would take to change things isn’t there and nor would an incremental change in this percentage make a difference.
The reason why the above point has so much weight in my mind is that despite my very high interest in learning about a variety of things and in forming accurate views on a variety of subjects; I haven’t achieved very much. It’s not clear whether having accurate views of the world has been more helpful or harmful to me in achieving my goals. The jury is still very much out and things may change; but the very fact that it’s possible for me to have this attitude is a strong indication that knowledge and accurate views on a variety of things can be useless on their own.
Regarding:
I made a comment that you may find relevant here; I would characterize nutrition/exercise/etc. as fields that are obviously important and which therefore attract many researchers/corporations/hobbyists/etc. having the effect of driving high quality of researchers out of the field on account of bad associations.
Another factor may be absence of low hanging fruit (which you reference in your top level post); it could be that the diversity of humans is sufficiently great so that it’s difficult to make general statements about what’s healthy/unhealthy.
I agree with what you said about main stream fields being diluted, but offer an interesting corollary to that. Economic motives compel various gurus and nutritionists to make claims to the average joe, and the average joe, or even the educated joe cannot sort through them. However, if one looks in more narrow fields, one can obtain more specific answers without so much trash. For example, powerlifting. This is not a huge market nor one you can benefit financially from that much. If one is trying to sell something or get something published, he can’t just say “I pretty much agree with X”, he needs to somehow distinguish himself. But when that motive is eliminated you can get more consistency in recommendations and have a greater chance to actually hit upon what works.
While you might not be interested in powerlifting, reading in more niche areas can help filter out profit/status seeking charlatans, and can allow one to see the similarities across disciplines. So while I’ve read about bodybuilding, powerlifting, and endurance sports, and their associated nutritional advice, I would never read a book about “being fit.”
As an aside, I recently had this horrible moment of realization. Much of the fitness advise given out is just so incredibly wrong, and I am able to realize that because I have a strong background in that subject. But I realized, 90% of the stuff I read about are areas I don’t have a great background in. I could be accepting really wrong facts in other areas that are just as wrong as the nutritional facts I scoff at, and I would never learn of my error.