Thank you for the positive mention, but I’m afraid I disagree with your model of me. Luke is a far braver man than I to even enter this minefield; I won’t condemn him for not dancing a merry jig on top of it too.
Luke originally tried to write an article referring to PUA. People told him this was controversial, not just among ignorant people but among long-time readers of this site, that it had always led to unpleasant flame wars in the past, and that it was making us look bad “abroad”.
Now he seems to be writing more or less the same thing, but communicating it in a less offensive way. I don’t fault him for leaving anything out yet because it’s only been one post in a series. I don’t think anything he wrote is actually false (well, I have issues with the ‘Mean and Variance’ section, but he retracted the meat of that). And I think he made the right decision in trying to pitch it to a wider audience.
Luke originally tried to write an article referring to PUA. People told him this was controversial
Yes, I would also like to congratulate Lukeprog for caving in to social pressure and posting information which is deliberately misleading. I am sure that all the (male) people who read this article, and start using his politically correct nonsense to improve their dating lives will really appreciate it too! (As for female dating advice, I don’t know what I am talking about, so I will shut up)
Since the advice given in the article is actively harmful, a better solution would be for Lukeprog to just tell people to google pick up. That way, nobody could flame him on LW, and he wouldn’t be spreading actively harmful information.
Now he seems to be writing more or less the same thing, but communicating it in a less offensive way
he is telling people to display “agreeableness”—pretty much the opposite of PUA advice, he is telling you to “like” others—a dangerous piece of advice which could quickly turn into desperate, supplicative behavior, complimenting, etc. He is emphasizing physical looks over dominance and alpha-male behavior, again the opposite of PUA advice.
I will edit my comment to take account of what you said.
Your point about agreeableness is well taken, so I looked up his reference, Figueredo et al. (2006).
First, keep in mind he’s using agreeableness in the OCEAN sense, not in the sense of “a person who always agrees to everything”. So it’s not diametrically opposed to PUA belief, although I agree there’s still a problem that has to be explained.
That brings us to the reference. Figueredo’s study itself found no impact of agreeableness, but in the introduction, it cites eight previous studies that it said found “extraversion, openness, and agreeableness are reliably correlated with mating success”. I looked up one of these studies, and it was on the success of long-term marital relationships, which is a whole different kettle of fish than the PUA’s usual focus. So depending on the other seven studies I didn’t have the energy to look up, they could both be right. It would have been nice if Luke had qualified that in his post, but really the fault was on Figueredo and not him.
Other than that, I would honestly like to hear what advice of Luke’s you consider misleading. Again aside from the “Mean and Variance” section, it all seems pretty well referenced and backed up.
I would consider the article misleading in the sense that “Women like alpha males, men like beautiful women” is the central truth of dating, in the same sense that evolution is the central truth of biology.
A creationist pamphlet which briefly mentioned a watered-down version of evolution—such as “microevolution”- in small print on page 7 is seriously misleading a student. Likewise, this article briefly mentions status, but then gives a lot of contradictory tips about being “agreeable” and “liking her”, both of which are low-status behaviours, all in amongst a morass of irrelevant, non-field-tested nonsense.
Academics who write papers on dating “science” are simply not in the same kind of tight feedback relationship with reality that pickup artists are, so they produce a collection of half truths and irrelevant effects, as well as missing out the most important aspects of the game. So the fact that he has referenced this stuff is pretty useless. Far better to take a look at what others who have tried stuff have found. The PU community can be thought of as a giant social psychology experiment, except without the arbitrary restrictions of academic science. Mystery is rumoured to have done 10,000 cold approaches and sexed 200-300 women. All the way from meet to penis-in-vagina, with a sample size of 10,000. Then multiply that by all the hundreds of highly successful PU artists. Compare that to a social science experiment which has a small sample size (~30) and only looks at one aspect of relationships and dating, and probably looks at correlations rather than causation.
By the way, props for actually pursuing these references. It is a shame that this is hard and tiring to do.
I’m confused—you seem to take it as a given that PUA techniques are the only/best tool for pursuing the many forms of relationship mentioned in the article. I’m by no means an expert, but I’d be surprised if PUA worked as well for, say, a woman trying to extend her list of partners with a man with a shared interest in classical music. (Quickly glancing at some lists, “get out there and meet people” seems to be good advice; but quickly approaching lots of partners may not work well in this case.)
Isn’t it possible that the broader scope of this article justifies de-emphasizing pickup artistry? Even if you don’t think that PUA should be avoided for its mind-killing properties, shouldn’t we at least give lukeprog the benefit of the doubt? If nothing else, there may be follow-up articles dealing with this.
Thank you for the positive mention, but I’m afraid I disagree with your model of me. Luke is a far braver man than I to even enter this minefield; I won’t condemn him for not dancing a merry jig on top of it too.
Luke originally tried to write an article referring to PUA. People told him this was controversial, not just among ignorant people but among long-time readers of this site, that it had always led to unpleasant flame wars in the past, and that it was making us look bad “abroad”.
Now he seems to be writing more or less the same thing, but communicating it in a less offensive way. I don’t fault him for leaving anything out yet because it’s only been one post in a series. I don’t think anything he wrote is actually false (well, I have issues with the ‘Mean and Variance’ section, but he retracted the meat of that). And I think he made the right decision in trying to pitch it to a wider audience.
He’s not entering a minefield so much as dragging it back to his village.
Yes, I would also like to congratulate Lukeprog for caving in to social pressure and posting information which is deliberately misleading. I am sure that all the (male) people who read this article, and start using his politically correct nonsense to improve their dating lives will really appreciate it too! (As for female dating advice, I don’t know what I am talking about, so I will shut up)
Since the advice given in the article is actively harmful, a better solution would be for Lukeprog to just tell people to google pick up. That way, nobody could flame him on LW, and he wouldn’t be spreading actively harmful information.
he is telling people to display “agreeableness”—pretty much the opposite of PUA advice, he is telling you to “like” others—a dangerous piece of advice which could quickly turn into desperate, supplicative behavior, complimenting, etc. He is emphasizing physical looks over dominance and alpha-male behavior, again the opposite of PUA advice.
I will edit my comment to take account of what you said.
Your point about agreeableness is well taken, so I looked up his reference, Figueredo et al. (2006).
First, keep in mind he’s using agreeableness in the OCEAN sense, not in the sense of “a person who always agrees to everything”. So it’s not diametrically opposed to PUA belief, although I agree there’s still a problem that has to be explained.
That brings us to the reference. Figueredo’s study itself found no impact of agreeableness, but in the introduction, it cites eight previous studies that it said found “extraversion, openness, and agreeableness are reliably correlated with mating success”. I looked up one of these studies, and it was on the success of long-term marital relationships, which is a whole different kettle of fish than the PUA’s usual focus. So depending on the other seven studies I didn’t have the energy to look up, they could both be right. It would have been nice if Luke had qualified that in his post, but really the fault was on Figueredo and not him.
Other than that, I would honestly like to hear what advice of Luke’s you consider misleading. Again aside from the “Mean and Variance” section, it all seems pretty well referenced and backed up.
I would consider the article misleading in the sense that “Women like alpha males, men like beautiful women” is the central truth of dating, in the same sense that evolution is the central truth of biology.
A creationist pamphlet which briefly mentioned a watered-down version of evolution—such as “microevolution”- in small print on page 7 is seriously misleading a student. Likewise, this article briefly mentions status, but then gives a lot of contradictory tips about being “agreeable” and “liking her”, both of which are low-status behaviours, all in amongst a morass of irrelevant, non-field-tested nonsense.
Academics who write papers on dating “science” are simply not in the same kind of tight feedback relationship with reality that pickup artists are, so they produce a collection of half truths and irrelevant effects, as well as missing out the most important aspects of the game. So the fact that he has referenced this stuff is pretty useless. Far better to take a look at what others who have tried stuff have found. The PU community can be thought of as a giant social psychology experiment, except without the arbitrary restrictions of academic science. Mystery is rumoured to have done 10,000 cold approaches and sexed 200-300 women. All the way from meet to penis-in-vagina, with a sample size of 10,000. Then multiply that by all the hundreds of highly successful PU artists. Compare that to a social science experiment which has a small sample size (~30) and only looks at one aspect of relationships and dating, and probably looks at correlations rather than causation. By the way, props for actually pursuing these references. It is a shame that this is hard and tiring to do.
I’m confused—you seem to take it as a given that PUA techniques are the only/best tool for pursuing the many forms of relationship mentioned in the article. I’m by no means an expert, but I’d be surprised if PUA worked as well for, say, a woman trying to extend her list of partners with a man with a shared interest in classical music. (Quickly glancing at some lists, “get out there and meet people” seems to be good advice; but quickly approaching lots of partners may not work well in this case.)
Isn’t it possible that the broader scope of this article justifies de-emphasizing pickup artistry? Even if you don’t think that PUA should be avoided for its mind-killing properties, shouldn’t we at least give lukeprog the benefit of the doubt? If nothing else, there may be follow-up articles dealing with this.
I didn’t say that, let me explicitly disclaim: PU works for hetero men who want to have relationships of any kind with attractive hetero/bi women.
If you are female and looking to have more success dating guys, then I make no claim to be an expert or give advice.