I very much do not believe that “agree or disagree” is a good proxy for that/tracks that. I think that it doesn’t train[ LWers to distinguish their sense of truth or falsehood from how much their monkey brain wants to signal-boost a given contribution. I don’t think it is going to nudge us toward better discourse and clearer separation of [truth] and [value].
See my other comment. I don’t think agree/disagree is much different from true/false, and am confused about the strength of your reaction here. I personally don’t have a strong preference, and only mildly prefer “agree/disagree” because it is more clearly in the same category as “approve/disapprove”, i.e. an action, instead of a state.
I think the hover-over text needs tweaking anyways. If other people also have a preference for saying something like “Agree: Do you think the content of this comment is true?” and “Disagree: Do you think the content of this comment is false?”, then that seems good to me. Having “approve/disapprove” and “true/false” as the top-level distinction does sure parse as a type error to me (why is one an action, and the other one an adjective?).
I also think we should definitely change the hover for the karma-vote dimension to say “approve” and “disapprove”, instead of “like” and “dislike”, which I think captures the dimensions here better.
Agree: Do you think the content of this comment is true?
Apart from equivocation of words with usefully different meanings, I think it’s less useful to extract truth-dimension than agreement-dimension, since truth-dimension is present less often, doesn’t help with improving approval-dimension, and agreement-dimension becomes truth-dimension for objective claims, so truth-dimension is a special case of the more-useful-for-other-things agreement-dimension.
I think this is false. Subjective disagreement shouldn’t imply disapproval, capturing subjective-disagreement by disapproval rounds it off to disincentivization of non-conformity, which is a problem. Extracting it into a separate dimension solves this karma-problem.
It is less useful for what you want because it’s contextually-more-ambiguous than the truth-verdict. So I think the meaningful disagreement between me and you/habryka(?) might be in which issue is more important (to spend the second-voting-dimension slot on). I think the large quantity of karma-upvoted/agreement-downvoted comments to this post is some evidence for the importance of the idea I’m professing.
To derive from something I said as a secondary part of another comment, possibly more clearly: I think that extracting “social approval that this post was a good idea and should be promoted” while conflating other forms of “agreement” is a better choice of dimensionality reduction than extracting “objective truth of the statements in this post” while conflating other forms of “approval”. Note that the former makes this change kind of a “reverse extraction” where the karma system was meant to be centered around that one element to begin with and now has some noise removed, while the other elements now have a place to be rather than vanishing. The last part of that may center some disapprovals of the new system, along the lines of “amplifying the rest of it into its own number (rather than leaving it as an ambiguous background presence) introduces more noise than is removed by keeping the social approval axis ‘clean’” (which I don’t believe, but I can partly see why other people might believe).
Of Strange Loop relevance: I am treating most of the above beliefs of mine here as having primarily intersubjective truth value, which is similar in a lot of relevant ways to an objective truth value but only contextually interconvertible.
“Agree: Do you think the content of this comment is true? (Or if the comment is about an emotional reaction or belief of the author, does that statement resonate with you?)”
It sure is a mouthful, but it feels like it points towards a coherent cluster.
I think the thing Duncan wants is harder to formulate than this, it has to disallow voting on aspects of the comment that are not about factual claims whose truth is relevant. And since most claims are true, it somehow has to avoid everyone-truth-upvotes-everything default in a way that retains some sort of useful signal instead of deciding the number of upvotes based on truth-unrelated selection effects. I don’t see what this should mean for comments-in-general, carefully explained, and I don’t currently have much hope that it can be operationalized into something more useful than agreement.
See my other comment. I don’t think agree/disagree is much different from true/false, and am confused about the strength of your reaction here. I personally don’t have a strong preference, and only mildly prefer “agree/disagree” because it is more clearly in the same category as “approve/disapprove”, i.e. an action, instead of a state.
I think the hover-over text needs tweaking anyways. If other people also have a preference for saying something like “Agree: Do you think the content of this comment is true?” and “Disagree: Do you think the content of this comment is false?”, then that seems good to me. Having “approve/disapprove” and “true/false” as the top-level distinction does sure parse as a type error to me (why is one an action, and the other one an adjective?).
I also think we should definitely change the hover for the karma-vote dimension to say “approve” and “disapprove”, instead of “like” and “dislike”, which I think captures the dimensions here better.
Apart from equivocation of words with usefully different meanings, I think it’s less useful to extract truth-dimension than agreement-dimension, since truth-dimension is present less often, doesn’t help with improving approval-dimension, and agreement-dimension becomes truth-dimension for objective claims, so truth-dimension is a special case of the more-useful-for-other-things agreement-dimension.
I think the karma dimension already captures the-parts-of-the-agreement-dimension-that-aren’t-truth.
I think this is false. Subjective disagreement shouldn’t imply disapproval, capturing subjective-disagreement by disapproval rounds it off to disincentivization of non-conformity, which is a problem. Extracting it into a separate dimension solves this karma-problem.
It is less useful for what you want because it’s contextually-more-ambiguous than the truth-verdict. So I think the meaningful disagreement between me and you/habryka(?) might be in which issue is more important (to spend the second-voting-dimension slot on). I think the large quantity of karma-upvoted/agreement-downvoted comments to this post is some evidence for the importance of the idea I’m professing.
To derive from something I said as a secondary part of another comment, possibly more clearly: I think that extracting “social approval that this post was a good idea and should be promoted” while conflating other forms of “agreement” is a better choice of dimensionality reduction than extracting “objective truth of the statements in this post” while conflating other forms of “approval”. Note that the former makes this change kind of a “reverse extraction” where the karma system was meant to be centered around that one element to begin with and now has some noise removed, while the other elements now have a place to be rather than vanishing. The last part of that may center some disapprovals of the new system, along the lines of “amplifying the rest of it into its own number (rather than leaving it as an ambiguous background presence) introduces more noise than is removed by keeping the social approval axis ‘clean’” (which I don’t believe, but I can partly see why other people might believe).
Of Strange Loop relevance: I am treating most of the above beliefs of mine here as having primarily intersubjective truth value, which is similar in a lot of relevant ways to an objective truth value but only contextually interconvertible.
Hmm, what about language like
“Agree: Do you think the content of this comment is true? (Or if the comment is about an emotional reaction or belief of the author, does that statement resonate with you?)”
It sure is a mouthful, but it feels like it points towards a coherent cluster.
I think the thing Duncan wants is harder to formulate than this, it has to disallow voting on aspects of the comment that are not about factual claims whose truth is relevant. And since most claims are true, it somehow has to avoid everyone-truth-upvotes-everything default in a way that retains some sort of useful signal instead of deciding the number of upvotes based on truth-unrelated selection effects. I don’t see what this should mean for comments-in-general, carefully explained, and I don’t currently have much hope that it can be operationalized into something more useful than agreement.