This is a great thread for explaining how to spot the frame
I have a lot to say on frames, but a very foundational lesson also worth mentioning is how the spell casting takes place, and how to Counterspell
It happens in 5 steps
Someone sets a frame
Significance control: thread expand if you agree, VS thread minimize if you decide to ignore it and move
Frame negotiation: agree, reframe, or set your own (opposing) frame
Agreement
Cementing
If you set the frame, you can control the frame from beginning to end. However, if someone else sets the frame, then you first want to decide whether to expand on that frame, or to minimize it.
Significance Control
The more significant a frame is, the more it impacts the conversation, so whether you want to minimize or expand is an important decision
If you decide to challenge a frame, you also expand on it. So if you lose that negotiation, then you face much bigger consequences because you first expanded it, and then lost it. Indeed the opposite of minimizing is not to say it doesn’t matter but, often, is to simply ignore it.
Thread-Expanding
If a frame is agreeable to you, you want to expand on it. There are many ways of thread-expanding, including:
Asking questions such as “why is that” or “why do you think so”
Asking leading questions: ie. “oh wow, do you really think so”
Strategic disagreement: such as “you think so? But this other person said the opposite”. Now they’re forced to defend and talk more, which expands the initial frame
Laughing: a way to “covert expanding” anyone with a Facebook account is familiar with. This is what lawyers sometimes do to highlight the opposing lawyers’ mistakes (you could see plenty of that during the Depp VS Heard defamation case: most people never realize that most of the snickering was done on purpose to sway public and jurors’ opinions)
Agreeing and expanding: you agree, and explain why you agree
Agreeing and sharing: you agree, and share a story that supports the frame or belief
Agreeing and rewarding: you agree, and you tell them why you appreciate them for saying or doing what they did
(Side note: Most techniques of frame negotiation also expand on a frame. So you want to be careful not expanding disagreement or irreconcilable differences when you need rapport. And this is why, generally speaking, “agreeing and redirecting” is a fantastic form of frame control: it’s because it sets your own frame while minimizing the disagreement and leveraging the commonalities)
Thread-Minimizing
Whenever a frame is disagreeable to you, you can either challenge it, or minimize it
If you have the power to challenge it and change people’s opinions, or at least if you want your disagreeing voice to be heard, then you can speak up.
Many other times, it’s best instead to minimize a frame, and move on. Minimizing a frame includes:
Ignoring it
“Yeah yeah-ing it”, such as to agree but with little to no conviction and then moving on
Thread-cutting (ie.: Changing topic) a common, and effective technique (if well executed)
Offer small and partial third-party agreement: ie.” yeah, some people feel that way”, and then moving on
Cementing
Now for the most important step
Imagine you agreed on a good frame that’s good for you. What do you do now?
You want to expand on that frame to increase the (perceived) benefits and the follow-through.
This phase is called “thread cementing”, an incredibly useful technique.
Frame cementing means: Expanding and solidifying the thread of the “agreement reached” to solidify the new frame and increase its effectiveness. Frame cementing increases the likelihood that the other party will stick to the new negotiated frame, and/or it increases the likelihood that the Persuasion will be internalized and accepted as the new reality (VS just agreeing with the frame as a form of short-term capitulation)
This final step… actually has additional substeps (Human psychology is hard, okay?!!!)
You reach a point where a frame is agreeable to you
Cement it by asking for confirmation
A frame that is agreed by the other party immediately increases its power by 10 fold. It makes people feel part of the decision, which increases adoption and followthrough, as well as increasing “intrinsic motivation”.
Some ways of doing it:
• “ What do you think“: an agreement with less nudging gets more buy-in and is even more powerful
• “Do you agree“
• “It makes sense, doesn’t it”
Note: silence often (thougb not always!) means one is in the process of accepting it, but might feel disempowered to admit it. Generally speaking, the frame agreed upon should feel good
Cement it by providing your own confirmation
Confirm your own agreement about the frame and, ideally, also confirm it by sharing your good feelings about the new frame
For example:
▪︎ “I’m glad we agree“
▪︎ “ I’m happy we see things the same way“
End with a collaborative frame and/or reward
For example:
• “Yeah, it makes sense, right? You get it because you’re also a smart guy/gal“
• “ I’m glad we’re going to do this. And I’m glad it’s going to help (because I care about you)“: show that you are glad about the new frame/agreement because it will benefit them, and because you care about them. Super powerful. But be honest about it please -or don’t say it-!
• Silence and smile: confirms nonverbally the good vibe
Next steps and taking action
If it was a frame that requires taking action, move on to the next steps.
(Side note: The more you had to persuade, the more you want to show that you are also tasking yourself with some steps. Eg “Great, so you can take care of X, I’ll do Y and Z, and we’ll meet at 4pm“)
Frame cementing is super powerful, BUT you better be genuine when using, and you better use it with real win-win frames or with the best intentions for the people you’re persuading.
When you use it for win-lose, that’s the stuff of manipulators. And albeit it can work in the short-term, over the long-term many people will catch on. As a matter of fact, the higher the quality of the people you deal with, the more likely it is they will catch on
Even when you use it for win-win you must be careful. You can still come across as a bit too sleek, which raises some red flags
Give people space to agree by themselves. Ask questions more than making statements. And when you must intervene, live by the motto “nudge, don’t push”.
Also make sure you stress the win-win nature of the agreement, together with how glad you are because you care about them.
One final Warning: Unchallenged Frames Self-Cement Over Time
This is important to remember
Frames that go unchallenged tend to cement themselves. Especially when they repeat over time.
What happens is that the frame, from a verbal or nonverbal statement that simply describes or comments on reality, becomes more and more a reality of your shared (social) life.
This is a very important principl, because it means that if you let bad frames go unchallenged, then you lose arguments and/or persuasive power forever, not just in the few seconds that the frame lasts. And if they are repeated frames, they can also compound power over time
This is a similar principle for micro-aggressions: if you let micro-aggressions go unchallenged, then they build-up, and you die by a thousand cuts.
This usuallg means that it’s a good idea to get in the habit of challenging most frames are irrational/disagreeable early on in every new relationship
This doesn’t sound wrong exactly but it does sound icky.
It seems to be missing “we are talking to each other in good faith, cooperatively; we point out the existence of the frame choices rather than sneakily trying to end up with a frame that’s good for what we want right now”.
I mean it’s technically kindasorta there in some of the expanding, like “you think so? But this other person said the opposite”. But the spirit still seems adversarial and manipulative, even in “win-win”. Like… “the only reason I’m not punching you is because you got lucky and accidentally agree with what I want”.
If I used these techniques with myself it would feel like bad brain habits.
I don’t want to be on the receiving end.
Maybe this is supposed to be applicable only in situations where you’re fine treating people as NPCs to be manipulated? If so, add that context, on LW. If not—FYI, it came off as if it was, to at least one person, namely me.
GuySrinivasan there are instructions on casting a dark spell, step by step
You don’t cast Avada Kedavra with happy thoughts, you cast it with the intention to kill
You cast fiendfyre with blood
And you cast “TARE DETRIMENS” by having very bad brain habits, on average
This wasnt a guide for the purpose of doing it. This was a guide for the purpose of recognizing it when done to you and seeing them dance the steps and having them reified
This is a great thread for explaining how to spot the frame
I have a lot to say on frames, but a very foundational lesson also worth mentioning is how the spell casting takes place, and how to Counterspell
It happens in 5 steps
Someone sets a frame
Significance control: thread expand if you agree, VS thread minimize if you decide to ignore it and move
Frame negotiation: agree, reframe, or set your own (opposing) frame
Agreement
Cementing
If you set the frame, you can control the frame from beginning to end. However, if someone else sets the frame, then you first want to decide whether to expand on that frame, or to minimize it.
Significance Control
The more significant a frame is, the more it impacts the conversation, so whether you want to minimize or expand is an important decision
If you decide to challenge a frame, you also expand on it. So if you lose that negotiation, then you face much bigger consequences because you first expanded it, and then lost it. Indeed the opposite of minimizing is not to say it doesn’t matter but, often, is to simply ignore it.
Thread-Expanding
If a frame is agreeable to you, you want to expand on it. There are many ways of thread-expanding, including:
Asking questions such as “why is that” or “why do you think so” Asking leading questions: ie. “oh wow, do you really think so” Strategic disagreement: such as “you think so? But this other person said the opposite”. Now they’re forced to defend and talk more, which expands the initial frame Laughing: a way to “covert expanding” anyone with a Facebook account is familiar with. This is what lawyers sometimes do to highlight the opposing lawyers’ mistakes (you could see plenty of that during the Depp VS Heard defamation case: most people never realize that most of the snickering was done on purpose to sway public and jurors’ opinions) Agreeing and expanding: you agree, and explain why you agree Agreeing and sharing: you agree, and share a story that supports the frame or belief Agreeing and rewarding: you agree, and you tell them why you appreciate them for saying or doing what they did
(Side note: Most techniques of frame negotiation also expand on a frame. So you want to be careful not expanding disagreement or irreconcilable differences when you need rapport. And this is why, generally speaking, “agreeing and redirecting” is a fantastic form of frame control: it’s because it sets your own frame while minimizing the disagreement and leveraging the commonalities)
Thread-Minimizing
Whenever a frame is disagreeable to you, you can either challenge it, or minimize it
If you have the power to challenge it and change people’s opinions, or at least if you want your disagreeing voice to be heard, then you can speak up.
Many other times, it’s best instead to minimize a frame, and move on. Minimizing a frame includes:
Ignoring it “Yeah yeah-ing it”, such as to agree but with little to no conviction and then moving on Thread-cutting (ie.: Changing topic) a common, and effective technique (if well executed) Offer small and partial third-party agreement: ie.” yeah, some people feel that way”, and then moving on
Cementing
Now for the most important step
Imagine you agreed on a good frame that’s good for you. What do you do now?
You want to expand on that frame to increase the (perceived) benefits and the follow-through.
This phase is called “thread cementing”, an incredibly useful technique.
Frame cementing means: Expanding and solidifying the thread of the “agreement reached” to solidify the new frame and increase its effectiveness. Frame cementing increases the likelihood that the other party will stick to the new negotiated frame, and/or it increases the likelihood that the Persuasion will be internalized and accepted as the new reality (VS just agreeing with the frame as a form of short-term capitulation)
This final step… actually has additional substeps (Human psychology is hard, okay?!!!)
You reach a point where a frame is agreeable to you
Cement it by asking for confirmation
A frame that is agreed by the other party immediately increases its power by 10 fold. It makes people feel part of the decision, which increases adoption and followthrough, as well as increasing “intrinsic motivation”.
Some ways of doing it: • “ What do you think“: an agreement with less nudging gets more buy-in and is even more powerful • “Do you agree“ • “It makes sense, doesn’t it”
Note: silence often (thougb not always!) means one is in the process of accepting it, but might feel disempowered to admit it. Generally speaking, the frame agreed upon should feel good
Cement it by providing your own confirmation
Confirm your own agreement about the frame and, ideally, also confirm it by sharing your good feelings about the new frame
For example: ▪︎ “I’m glad we agree“ ▪︎ “ I’m happy we see things the same way“
End with a collaborative frame and/or reward
For example: • “Yeah, it makes sense, right? You get it because you’re also a smart guy/gal“ • “ I’m glad we’re going to do this. And I’m glad it’s going to help (because I care about you)“: show that you are glad about the new frame/agreement because it will benefit them, and because you care about them. Super powerful. But be honest about it please -or don’t say it-! • Silence and smile: confirms nonverbally the good vibe
Next steps and taking action
If it was a frame that requires taking action, move on to the next steps.
(Side note: The more you had to persuade, the more you want to show that you are also tasking yourself with some steps. Eg “Great, so you can take care of X, I’ll do Y and Z, and we’ll meet at 4pm“)
Frame cementing is super powerful, BUT you better be genuine when using, and you better use it with real win-win frames or with the best intentions for the people you’re persuading.
When you use it for win-lose, that’s the stuff of manipulators. And albeit it can work in the short-term, over the long-term many people will catch on. As a matter of fact, the higher the quality of the people you deal with, the more likely it is they will catch on
Even when you use it for win-win you must be careful. You can still come across as a bit too sleek, which raises some red flags
Give people space to agree by themselves. Ask questions more than making statements. And when you must intervene, live by the motto “nudge, don’t push”.
Also make sure you stress the win-win nature of the agreement, together with how glad you are because you care about them.
One final Warning: Unchallenged Frames Self-Cement Over Time
This is important to remember
Frames that go unchallenged tend to cement themselves. Especially when they repeat over time.
What happens is that the frame, from a verbal or nonverbal statement that simply describes or comments on reality, becomes more and more a reality of your shared (social) life.
This is a very important principl, because it means that if you let bad frames go unchallenged, then you lose arguments and/or persuasive power forever, not just in the few seconds that the frame lasts. And if they are repeated frames, they can also compound power over time
This is a similar principle for micro-aggressions: if you let micro-aggressions go unchallenged, then they build-up, and you die by a thousand cuts.
This usuallg means that it’s a good idea to get in the habit of challenging most frames are irrational/disagreeable early on in every new relationship
This doesn’t sound wrong exactly but it does sound icky.
It seems to be missing “we are talking to each other in good faith, cooperatively; we point out the existence of the frame choices rather than sneakily trying to end up with a frame that’s good for what we want right now”.
I mean it’s technically kindasorta there in some of the expanding, like “you think so? But this other person said the opposite”. But the spirit still seems adversarial and manipulative, even in “win-win”. Like… “the only reason I’m not punching you is because you got lucky and accidentally agree with what I want”.
If I used these techniques with myself it would feel like bad brain habits.
I don’t want to be on the receiving end.
Maybe this is supposed to be applicable only in situations where you’re fine treating people as NPCs to be manipulated? If so, add that context, on LW. If not—FYI, it came off as if it was, to at least one person, namely me.
GuySrinivasan there are instructions on casting a dark spell, step by step
You don’t cast Avada Kedavra with happy thoughts, you cast it with the intention to kill
You cast fiendfyre with blood
And you cast “TARE DETRIMENS” by having very bad brain habits, on average
This wasnt a guide for the purpose of doing it. This was a guide for the purpose of recognizing it when done to you and seeing them dance the steps and having them reified
If it wasn’t “icky”, why would it be a dark art?
Ah, I was confused the whole time.
I thought you were trying to show us how to Counterspell! :D
Well, given the drop in upvotes, i can only imagine you weren’t alone, so that’s probably on me, should have made it clearer ;-)