I’m sorry, I may have either rounded you to the nearest cliche or lumped my responses to other people’s comments into my response to yours.
Your comments about “social pressure” and “how can something be consensual if you enshrine it as a ritual” did make me think there was a consent aspect to it, and your comment about “using ritual to insert things deep into your psyche is something that I think is just bad” was where I got the feeling of brainwashing from, but I can see how I might’ve been misunderstanding them.
So you’re saying you have such strong anti-ritual preferences that you assumed people must have been awkwardly attending something they didn’t like in order to fit in? Hm. That makes sense.
I guess what I’ve learned from this is that I still can’t describe the reasons for why I like things. “Community bonding” sounds good, but when you press me on it I admit it’s kind of dumb and the ritual wasn’t really about that at all. “Sense of the sacred” sounds good but there were a lot of other easier ways to get that feeling I didn’t go for. I’m just going to say I have an unexplained preference for rituals of about the same magnitude as an unexplained preference for playing fantasy role-playing games, and although I can come up with just-so stories for it (“group bonding”, “search for meaning”, whatever) I can’t explain it but would like to keep doing it anyway.
So you’re saying you have such strong anti-ritual preferences that you assumed people must have been awkwardly attending something they didn’t like in order to fit in? Hm. That makes sense.
I… suppose. Sort of.
Reading the OP made me immediately update to a realization that at least some people really liked this sort of thing; I assumed the other attendees had their own reasons for attending (which may not have just boiled down to peer pressure); I didn’t expect to subsequently learn that a preference for rituals is a) apparently everyone’s reason for coming, and b) much more common in the rationalist community than I thought. My own concerns about consent and social pressure are part of my reaction, though not, as I’ve said, the entirety.
For what it’s worth, I, too, have a pretty strong preference for playing fantasy role-playing games (especially of the tabletop variety), so your analogy hits close to home. I am trying to imagine what it would be like to have a strong “ick” reaction to tabletop RPGs such that I couldn’t understand why anyone would do it and would avoid a group that engaged in this activity, and I think I am succeeding, at least partly. (Of course, what I can’t do is verbalize any reason why I’d have such a reaction, which I definitely can for my objections to rituals.) Putting myself back in my own shoes, my response to such a person would be a lack of comprehension of what it was they found so objectionable; I guess I wouldn’t have much to say in response other than a shrug and “well, RPGs are awesome and we like playing them and it doesn’t hurt anyone”. I surmise from your comment that your response to my feelings about rituals can be summed up similarly?
I’m sorry, I may have either rounded you to the nearest cliche or lumped my responses to other people’s comments into my response to yours.
Your comments about “social pressure” and “how can something be consensual if you enshrine it as a ritual” did make me think there was a consent aspect to it, and your comment about “using ritual to insert things deep into your psyche is something that I think is just bad” was where I got the feeling of brainwashing from, but I can see how I might’ve been misunderstanding them.
So you’re saying you have such strong anti-ritual preferences that you assumed people must have been awkwardly attending something they didn’t like in order to fit in? Hm. That makes sense.
I guess what I’ve learned from this is that I still can’t describe the reasons for why I like things. “Community bonding” sounds good, but when you press me on it I admit it’s kind of dumb and the ritual wasn’t really about that at all. “Sense of the sacred” sounds good but there were a lot of other easier ways to get that feeling I didn’t go for. I’m just going to say I have an unexplained preference for rituals of about the same magnitude as an unexplained preference for playing fantasy role-playing games, and although I can come up with just-so stories for it (“group bonding”, “search for meaning”, whatever) I can’t explain it but would like to keep doing it anyway.
I… suppose. Sort of.
Reading the OP made me immediately update to a realization that at least some people really liked this sort of thing; I assumed the other attendees had their own reasons for attending (which may not have just boiled down to peer pressure); I didn’t expect to subsequently learn that a preference for rituals is a) apparently everyone’s reason for coming, and b) much more common in the rationalist community than I thought. My own concerns about consent and social pressure are part of my reaction, though not, as I’ve said, the entirety.
For what it’s worth, I, too, have a pretty strong preference for playing fantasy role-playing games (especially of the tabletop variety), so your analogy hits close to home. I am trying to imagine what it would be like to have a strong “ick” reaction to tabletop RPGs such that I couldn’t understand why anyone would do it and would avoid a group that engaged in this activity, and I think I am succeeding, at least partly. (Of course, what I can’t do is verbalize any reason why I’d have such a reaction, which I definitely can for my objections to rituals.) Putting myself back in my own shoes, my response to such a person would be a lack of comprehension of what it was they found so objectionable; I guess I wouldn’t have much to say in response other than a shrug and “well, RPGs are awesome and we like playing them and it doesn’t hurt anyone”. I surmise from your comment that your response to my feelings about rituals can be summed up similarly?
I always refer to this chapter on ritual from the book Secular Wholeness.