Hello ! I am Jaime who recognized your username on ACX and requested you publish this retrospective. Thank you so much for this; I found it very insightful and very helpful for my research.
I’m currently writing my thesis on spaced repetition in foreign language classrooms, and am planning to become a secondary school French teacher. The curriculum I’m writing integrates spaced repetition into the material reviewed on a given day, without using flashcards, and was heavily inspired by the model in this post. I have no idea if it’ll work, but at the very least part of my thesis is creating a bunch of lesson plans, so I figure the worst possible outcome here is that I was wrong about everything but at least I made up some fun activities along the way.
I’ve suspected for awhile that one problem with school is that they try to get you to learn too much information, so it’s nice to hear from an experienced teacher that I’m probably thinking along the right track.
Your commentary on apprenticeship is interesting; I remember learning French in middle and high school that I was deeply impacted by the few times where another French teacher would come chat with my teacher, in French. It was a rare opportunity to witness a fluent conversation in real time. Something I want to prioritize in my French classroom is bringing in guest speakers. I’ve previously assumed that the primary goal would be the evangelize practical applications of French (which I’m very aware are limited; but you can see how this sort of thing would be very relevant in a Spanish or Mandarin classroom). Maybe a secondary or even primary goal would be the opportunity for students to watch in real time a fluent French conversation, and lacking the spontaneity I witnessed between French teachers as a 7th grader, myself and the guest speaker could make a specific effort to use relevant and known vocabulary. I’m not sure of other ways that apprenticeship-style teaching could be incorporated into a foreign language classroom, but I’m very interested in researching further.
Experts talking shop with other experts is one of my favorite finds when I study!
During my dive into stand-up comedy, I came across this video of some top comedians talking shop. Especially from about the 30 minute mark, when they seem less concerned with entertaining their audience, they get into some juicy minutiae of why a joke might work or not. It really expanded my thinking on the subject.
Are such chats more insightful than an expert teacher would be in a lesson on that same topic? Not necessarily. But you might not find a skilled teacher ever teaching a lesson on that exact topic. I think humans are naturally primed to closely observe expert-expert chats for a few reasons:
• Social proof. We instinctively want to be able to talk like the experts do so we can blend in with them. So we listen carefully to how they talk.
• Authenticity. If this is what experts actually talk about, we feel like it must really matter. It’s not just the lesson of the day.
• The overhearing effect. This is a term I’m making up, but I’ve found it to be an important one exploited by storytellers. We naturally want to deduce the context of overheard language, so we listen extra carefully, trying to fill in the blanks. I suspect this is down to humans’ highly evolved appetite for gossip. The fact that the experts aren’t talking to us is essential for exploiting this effect.
Although… I find that an expert talking to himself, seemingly unguarded, seemingly without conscious awareness that he is being overhead… can also trigger the overhearing effect. When I model a skill to my students, I try to verbalize my inner monologue in a way that will be intriguing to overhear and carry that essential whiff of authenticity.
I’m not sure what expert self-talk looks like in foreign language instruction, but I would be interested to find out. (Any ideas?)
But from my time becoming a reasonably fluent Spanish speaker (since lost), I can describe a few language dimensions I found interesting but neglected by all but the nerdiest supplemental books.
Sentence-level inflection patterns vary, and it helps to be aware of them. For instance, the musicality of typical question sentence is different in American English than in Castilian Spanish. If you can pick up on the melody earlier in the sentence, you can better contextualize what is being saidasked.
The way speakers in different languages produce what seems, on the surface, to be identical phonemes, can be quite different, and understanding this is essential to actually sounding like a native. There can be hours of fun trying to practice a Castilian ‘toh’ sound (as in toma), with its thicker top-front palette tongue contact, vs. the American English cousin equivalent (as in tomato).
Native speakers of language A learning language B often end up predictably adopting many of the same idioms and juicy words from language B into their language A conversations with each other, and they find themselves saying or thinking in those patterns even when their brains are mostly running language A. It could be fun to introduce some of these to novices and make it part of the language A classroom slang—a kind of introduction to thinking in language B.
Do you think that instinctive drive to listen to experts “talk shop” applies to apathetic students, though? I worry that the chance to listen to “experts” (native speakers) chat at the front of the room would be too easily taken as a chance to tune out and relax (especially since what they’re getting from the experience is more metadata about how a conversation in the target language works than any particular language content itself). I’m not sure how the “authenticity” rule applies either, for the same reason. I don’t see how “We instinctively want to be able to talk like the experts do so we can blend in with them” would apply to a student with no desire to become an expert/fluent speaker. Do you think these are relevant questions, or do you think that the benefit of such a expert-expert interaction to highly motivated students would outweigh the uselessness to unmotivated ones?
My instinct for expert self-talk in foreign language instruction is just normal talking to oneself; “thinking aloud,” as it were. I’m not sure the best way to demonstrate that to the class, since I think the most authentic scenario would be to put them in an immersive environment so they can figure it out. But if we had ready access to immersive environments then foreign language classrooms would be in much better shape.
WRT 2, yes, pronunciation is something that was never explicitly taught in my high school language experience, and I think it would help students build confidence in their speaking. I haven’t yet figured out the best way to do this without teaching them IPA, but it’s definitely something I want to incorporate. Even if they can get the vowel system down (ignoring tricky consonants like trilled R’s and unaspirated T’s) I think many students would be in a better boat than they are now.
Do you think that instinctive drive to listen to experts “talk shop” applies to apathetic students, though?
That’s definitely the right question. If you and another expert leap straight into fluent French, no, I don’t think your apathetic students will try to keep up—especially if they are early beginners. More helpful might be a Franc-lish hybrid conversation where you swap stories of embarrassing errors and insights largely in English while sprinkling in French words and expressions, reenacting parts of colorful encounters from your combined French-speaking experience.
I also think one of the difficulties in modeling language fluency is that the whole point of being fluent is to not need to think about the language, but to simply think in it, so I’m not sure what your vocalized monologue would be about...unless...
Ok, here’s a thought: I and the other motivated folks I learned Spanish with sometimes found ourselves slipping into a Spanglish patois outside of class where we spoke English with Spanish syntax. It felt like silly play at the time, but I now think it was an instinctive intermediate step to thinking in that language.
“It makes rain.” (It’s raining.)
“To me pleases the rain!” (I like rain.)
Perhaps you could try fostering a Franc-lish dialect in your classes by thinking out loud in that style and inviting others to join you in banter, patiently nudging them to get the grammar right instead of just talking like Yoda. From there, substituting actual French with increasing frequency could feel very natural.
You may not have immersive environments, but I imagine you’ll be creating simulated immersion: play-acting situations that give you a chance to think out loud as though you are navigating the moment for real. (Example: Going to the produce section of the store and seeing what looks good, what you could make with it, etc.) How much of that you should do in English, Frank-lish syntactic patois, or French will probably be something you will develop an expert instinct for as you become skilled at reading the room. Along the way, developing an entertaining stage presence for this play-acting would give you a powerful weapon against apathy.
Yes, yes… and you would be randomly involving students in your little improvised plays, assigning them roles, keeping them on their toes, making the non-participants want to get called on.
Yep, it sounds pretty awesome from the comfort of my not-having-to-teach-French perch :)
It could be fun to introduce some of these to novices and make it part of the language A classroom slang—a kind of introduction to thinking in language B.
There’s a kind of slang that’s like what you describe in r/france, where people will intentionally use idiomatic english expressions translated word-for-word in frech in non-sensical ways.
Eg people will say “je suis hors de la boucle” (I’m out of the loop) even though that sounds incomprehensible to someone who doesn’t know the english idiom.
Some people get really annoyed about that pseudo-slang, though.
Hello ! I am Jaime who recognized your username on ACX and requested you publish this retrospective. Thank you so much for this; I found it very insightful and very helpful for my research.
I’m currently writing my thesis on spaced repetition in foreign language classrooms, and am planning to become a secondary school French teacher. The curriculum I’m writing integrates spaced repetition into the material reviewed on a given day, without using flashcards, and was heavily inspired by the model in this post. I have no idea if it’ll work, but at the very least part of my thesis is creating a bunch of lesson plans, so I figure the worst possible outcome here is that I was wrong about everything but at least I made up some fun activities along the way.
I’ve suspected for awhile that one problem with school is that they try to get you to learn too much information, so it’s nice to hear from an experienced teacher that I’m probably thinking along the right track.
Your commentary on apprenticeship is interesting; I remember learning French in middle and high school that I was deeply impacted by the few times where another French teacher would come chat with my teacher, in French. It was a rare opportunity to witness a fluent conversation in real time. Something I want to prioritize in my French classroom is bringing in guest speakers. I’ve previously assumed that the primary goal would be the evangelize practical applications of French (which I’m very aware are limited; but you can see how this sort of thing would be very relevant in a Spanish or Mandarin classroom). Maybe a secondary or even primary goal would be the opportunity for students to watch in real time a fluent French conversation, and lacking the spontaneity I witnessed between French teachers as a 7th grader, myself and the guest speaker could make a specific effort to use relevant and known vocabulary. I’m not sure of other ways that apprenticeship-style teaching could be incorporated into a foreign language classroom, but I’m very interested in researching further.
Experts talking shop with other experts is one of my favorite finds when I study!
During my dive into stand-up comedy, I came across this video of some top comedians talking shop. Especially from about the 30 minute mark, when they seem less concerned with entertaining their audience, they get into some juicy minutiae of why a joke might work or not. It really expanded my thinking on the subject.
Are such chats more insightful than an expert teacher would be in a lesson on that same topic? Not necessarily. But you might not find a skilled teacher ever teaching a lesson on that exact topic. I think humans are naturally primed to closely observe expert-expert chats for a few reasons:
• Social proof. We instinctively want to be able to talk like the experts do so we can blend in with them. So we listen carefully to how they talk.
• Authenticity. If this is what experts actually talk about, we feel like it must really matter. It’s not just the lesson of the day.
• The overhearing effect. This is a term I’m making up, but I’ve found it to be an important one exploited by storytellers. We naturally want to deduce the context of overheard language, so we listen extra carefully, trying to fill in the blanks. I suspect this is down to humans’ highly evolved appetite for gossip. The fact that the experts aren’t talking to us is essential for exploiting this effect.
Although… I find that an expert talking to himself, seemingly unguarded, seemingly without conscious awareness that he is being overhead… can also trigger the overhearing effect. When I model a skill to my students, I try to verbalize my inner monologue in a way that will be intriguing to overhear and carry that essential whiff of authenticity.
I’m not sure what expert self-talk looks like in foreign language instruction, but I would be interested to find out. (Any ideas?)
But from my time becoming a reasonably fluent Spanish speaker (since lost), I can describe a few language dimensions I found interesting but neglected by all but the nerdiest supplemental books.
Sentence-level inflection patterns vary, and it helps to be aware of them. For instance, the musicality of typical question sentence is different in American English than in Castilian Spanish. If you can pick up on the melody earlier in the sentence, you can better contextualize what is being
saidasked.The way speakers in different languages produce what seems, on the surface, to be identical phonemes, can be quite different, and understanding this is essential to actually sounding like a native. There can be hours of fun trying to practice a Castilian ‘toh’ sound (as in toma), with its thicker top-front palette tongue contact, vs. the American English cousin equivalent (as in tomato).
Native speakers of language A learning language B often end up predictably adopting many of the same idioms and juicy words from language B into their language A conversations with each other, and they find themselves saying or thinking in those patterns even when their brains are mostly running language A. It could be fun to introduce some of these to novices and make it part of the language A classroom slang—a kind of introduction to thinking in language B.
Do you think that instinctive drive to listen to experts “talk shop” applies to apathetic students, though? I worry that the chance to listen to “experts” (native speakers) chat at the front of the room would be too easily taken as a chance to tune out and relax (especially since what they’re getting from the experience is more metadata about how a conversation in the target language works than any particular language content itself). I’m not sure how the “authenticity” rule applies either, for the same reason. I don’t see how “We instinctively want to be able to talk like the experts do so we can blend in with them” would apply to a student with no desire to become an expert/fluent speaker. Do you think these are relevant questions, or do you think that the benefit of such a expert-expert interaction to highly motivated students would outweigh the uselessness to unmotivated ones?
My instinct for expert self-talk in foreign language instruction is just normal talking to oneself; “thinking aloud,” as it were. I’m not sure the best way to demonstrate that to the class, since I think the most authentic scenario would be to put them in an immersive environment so they can figure it out. But if we had ready access to immersive environments then foreign language classrooms would be in much better shape.
WRT 2, yes, pronunciation is something that was never explicitly taught in my high school language experience, and I think it would help students build confidence in their speaking. I haven’t yet figured out the best way to do this without teaching them IPA, but it’s definitely something I want to incorporate. Even if they can get the vowel system down (ignoring tricky consonants like trilled R’s and unaspirated T’s) I think many students would be in a better boat than they are now.
That’s definitely the right question. If you and another expert leap straight into fluent French, no, I don’t think your apathetic students will try to keep up—especially if they are early beginners. More helpful might be a Franc-lish hybrid conversation where you swap stories of embarrassing errors and insights largely in English while sprinkling in French words and expressions, reenacting parts of colorful encounters from your combined French-speaking experience.
I also think one of the difficulties in modeling language fluency is that the whole point of being fluent is to not need to think about the language, but to simply think in it, so I’m not sure what your vocalized monologue would be about...unless...
Ok, here’s a thought: I and the other motivated folks I learned Spanish with sometimes found ourselves slipping into a Spanglish patois outside of class where we spoke English with Spanish syntax. It felt like silly play at the time, but I now think it was an instinctive intermediate step to thinking in that language.
“It makes rain.” (It’s raining.)
“To me pleases the rain!” (I like rain.)
Perhaps you could try fostering a Franc-lish dialect in your classes by thinking out loud in that style and inviting others to join you in banter, patiently nudging them to get the grammar right instead of just talking like Yoda. From there, substituting actual French with increasing frequency could feel very natural.
You may not have immersive environments, but I imagine you’ll be creating simulated immersion: play-acting situations that give you a chance to think out loud as though you are navigating the moment for real. (Example: Going to the produce section of the store and seeing what looks good, what you could make with it, etc.) How much of that you should do in English, Frank-lish syntactic patois, or French will probably be something you will develop an expert instinct for as you become skilled at reading the room. Along the way, developing an entertaining stage presence for this play-acting would give you a powerful weapon against apathy.
Yes, yes… and you would be randomly involving students in your little improvised plays, assigning them roles, keeping them on their toes, making the non-participants want to get called on.
Yep, it sounds pretty awesome from the comfort of my not-having-to-teach-French perch :)
There’s a kind of slang that’s like what you describe in r/france, where people will intentionally use idiomatic english expressions translated word-for-word in frech in non-sensical ways.
Eg people will say “je suis hors de la boucle” (I’m out of the loop) even though that sounds incomprehensible to someone who doesn’t know the english idiom.
Some people get really annoyed about that pseudo-slang, though.