I think this is plausibly the best scenario either of us have made to date.
The basic game was very good, layering simple rules on top of each other to create a complex system which was challenging to detangle but easy to understand once you know the rules. I was particularly impressed by the fact that you managed the (imo, near-impossible) feat of making an enjoyable D&D.Sci where handling data starvation was a key part of the problem: most players (including me) seem to have had the (sensible) thought “okay, let’s filter for only potions with Onyx and Bone”, and success past that point was predicated on realizing there weren’t quite enough rows to justify being that picky.
The twist struck me as fair, funny and fun. It provided an object lesson in noticing when things don’t quite add up, and letting the qualitative shade the quantitative; it also expanded the scope of the genre in ways I realize I’ve been neglecting to.
All that said, I have some (minor, petty) criticisms . . . not of the game itself, but how it was presented. Namely:
.This entry was billed as “relatively simple”, but I think it was about median difficulty by the standards of D&D.Sci; pretty sure it was harder than (for example) The Sorceror’s Personal Shopper.
.”STORY (skippable)” was kind of misleading this time: the flavortext had a lot of little hints that the Archmage wasn’t on the level, so someone who didn’t read it (or failed to read between the lines, like me) would be at a (small) disadvantage.
.”Archmage Anachronos is trying to brew Barkskin Potion” was A) the GM saying something false directly to the players, and B) a missed opportunity: if you’d written something like “Your goal is to help Archmage Anachronos brew Barkskin Potion”, that would have been a subtle confirmation that giving him exactly what he asked for would lead to the best outcome (vs more aggressive / galaxy-brained forms of sabotage, or refusing to cast judgement on his pursuit of immortality, or any other reaction).
This entry was billed as “relatively simple”, but I think it was about median difficulty by the standards of D&D.Sci; pretty sure it was harder than (for example) The Sorceror’s Personal Shopper.
I guess that’s fair. There’s a complication here in that...uh...almost all of my scenarios have been above-median complexity and almost all of yours have been below-median. (I should probably write down my thoughts on this at some point). I agree that this one wasn’t simpler than most of yours, but I think that it was still a much more approachable entry point than e.g. Duels & D.Sci, or League of Defenders.
(It’s possible we should try to standardize a 1-10 complexity scale or some such so that we can stick a difficulty rating on the top of each scenario.)
“STORY (skippable)” was kind of misleading this time
Fair enough, I can tweak that for anyone who finds the scenario in future.
I intended that the story should not provide much help...the intent was not for players to notice that Anachronos was suspicious in-story, the intent was for them to notice from the data, and for the hints in the story to be just some quiet confirmation for a player who realized the twist from the data and then went back to reread the story.
On the other hand, I was expecting more players to get the twist, and thought that I’d only really catch players who ignored the ingredient names entirely and just fed the data into an ML algorithm, so I’m clearly not very well calibrated on this. I was really quite surprised by how many players analyzed the data well enough to say “Barkskin potion requires Crushed Onyx and Ground Bone, Necromantic Power Potion requires Beech Bark and Oaken Twigs” and then went on to say “this sounds reasonable, I have no further questions.” (Maybe the onyx-necromancy connection is more D&D lore than most players knew? But I thought that the bone-necromancy and bark-barkskin connections would be obvious even without that).
“Archmage Anachronos is trying to brew Barkskin Potion” was A) the GM saying something false directly to the players
I...think I’m in general allowed to say false things directly to the players as a D&D GM? If the Big Bad is disguised as your innkeeper while the real innkeeper is tied up in the cellar, I think I can say ‘The innkeeper tells you it’ll be six silver for a room’, I don’t think I need to say ‘The man who introduced himself to you as the innkeeper.’
(Also, you are a Data Scientist. Sense Motive is not a class skill for you. Clearly you failed a Sense Motive check and so believed him!)
...I’ll think about whether I want to tweak that line for potential future players.
I thought the flavour text was just right—I got it from the data, not the flavour text, and saw the flavour text as confirmation, as you intended.
I was really quite surprised by how many players analyzed the data well enough to say “Barkskin potion requires Crushed Onyx and Ground Bone, Necromantic Power Potion requires Beech Bark and Oaken Twigs” and then went on to say “this sounds reasonable, I have no further questions.” (Maybe the onyx-necromancy connection is more D&D lore than most players knew? But I thought that the bone-necromancy and bark-barkskin connections would be obvious even without that).
Illusion of transparency I think, hints are harder than anyone making them thinks.
When I looked at the ingredients for a “barkskin potion”, as far as I knew at this point the ingredients were arbitrary, so in fact I don’t recall finding it suspicious at all. Then later I remember looking at the ingredients for a “necromantic power potion” and thinking something like… “uh… maybe wood stuff is used for wands or something to do necromancy?”. It was only when I explicitly made a list of the ingredients for each potion type, rather than looking at each potion individually, and could see that everything else make sense, that I realized the twist.
If the Big Bad is disguised as your innkeeper while the real innkeeper is tied up in the cellar, I think I can say ‘The innkeeper tells you it’ll be six silver for a room’, I don’t think I need to say ‘The man who introduced himself to you as the innkeeper.’
Perhaps, but you could also simply say “Yeah, the guy at the counter tells you the room will be 6 silver.”
I think this is plausibly the best scenario either of us have made to date.
The basic game was very good, layering simple rules on top of each other to create a complex system which was challenging to detangle but easy to understand once you know the rules. I was particularly impressed by the fact that you managed the (imo, near-impossible) feat of making an enjoyable D&D.Sci where handling data starvation was a key part of the problem: most players (including me) seem to have had the (sensible) thought “okay, let’s filter for only potions with Onyx and Bone”, and success past that point was predicated on realizing there weren’t quite enough rows to justify being that picky.
The twist struck me as fair, funny and fun. It provided an object lesson in noticing when things don’t quite add up, and letting the qualitative shade the quantitative; it also expanded the scope of the genre in ways I realize I’ve been neglecting to.
All that said, I have some (minor, petty) criticisms . . . not of the game itself, but how it was presented. Namely:
.This entry was billed as “relatively simple”, but I think it was about median difficulty by the standards of D&D.Sci; pretty sure it was harder than (for example) The Sorceror’s Personal Shopper.
.”STORY (skippable)” was kind of misleading this time: the flavortext had a lot of little hints that the Archmage wasn’t on the level, so someone who didn’t read it (or failed to read between the lines, like me) would be at a (small) disadvantage.
.”Archmage Anachronos is trying to brew Barkskin Potion” was A) the GM saying something false directly to the players, and B) a missed opportunity: if you’d written something like “Your goal is to help Archmage Anachronos brew Barkskin Potion”, that would have been a subtle confirmation that giving him exactly what he asked for would lead to the best outcome (vs more aggressive / galaxy-brained forms of sabotage, or refusing to cast judgement on his pursuit of immortality, or any other reaction).
I’m glad you liked it, thank you!
I guess that’s fair. There’s a complication here in that...uh...almost all of my scenarios have been above-median complexity and almost all of yours have been below-median. (I should probably write down my thoughts on this at some point). I agree that this one wasn’t simpler than most of yours, but I think that it was still a much more approachable entry point than e.g. Duels & D.Sci, or League of Defenders.
(It’s possible we should try to standardize a 1-10 complexity scale or some such so that we can stick a difficulty rating on the top of each scenario.)
Fair enough, I can tweak that for anyone who finds the scenario in future.
I intended that the story should not provide much help...the intent was not for players to notice that Anachronos was suspicious in-story, the intent was for them to notice from the data, and for the hints in the story to be just some quiet confirmation for a player who realized the twist from the data and then went back to reread the story.
On the other hand, I was expecting more players to get the twist, and thought that I’d only really catch players who ignored the ingredient names entirely and just fed the data into an ML algorithm, so I’m clearly not very well calibrated on this. I was really quite surprised by how many players analyzed the data well enough to say “Barkskin potion requires Crushed Onyx and Ground Bone, Necromantic Power Potion requires Beech Bark and Oaken Twigs” and then went on to say “this sounds reasonable, I have no further questions.” (Maybe the onyx-necromancy connection is more D&D lore than most players knew? But I thought that the bone-necromancy and bark-barkskin connections would be obvious even without that).
I...think I’m in general allowed to say false things directly to the players as a D&D GM? If the Big Bad is disguised as your innkeeper while the real innkeeper is tied up in the cellar, I think I can say ‘The innkeeper tells you it’ll be six silver for a room’, I don’t think I need to say ‘The man who introduced himself to you as the innkeeper.’
(Also, you are a Data Scientist. Sense Motive is not a class skill for you. Clearly you failed a Sense Motive check and so believed him!)
...I’ll think about whether I want to tweak that line for potential future players.
I thought the flavour text was just right—I got it from the data, not the flavour text, and saw the flavour text as confirmation, as you intended.
Illusion of transparency I think, hints are harder than anyone making them thinks.
When I looked at the ingredients for a “barkskin potion”, as far as I knew at this point the ingredients were arbitrary, so in fact I don’t recall finding it suspicious at all. Then later I remember looking at the ingredients for a “necromantic power potion” and thinking something like… “uh… maybe wood stuff is used for wands or something to do necromancy?”. It was only when I explicitly made a list of the ingredients for each potion type, rather than looking at each potion individually, and could see that everything else make sense, that I realized the twist.
Perhaps, but you could also simply say “Yeah, the guy at the counter tells you the room will be 6 silver.”