99% of the people I know are religious. This isn’t an exaggeration. I can think of 2 or 3 that aren’t. (This doesn’t count online interactions.)
So… I guess I will just repeat what I said earlier. I’ve never met anyone who acted like this and wasn’t blatantly lying.
You have to realize that “evidence or tests” does not mean the same thing to them as it does to you. They have been conditioned against these words. If the belief is something as vague as, “God will show up during worship.” you cannot ask the phrase, “What evidence do you have for this?” This puts them on an immediate defensive because they are used to jerks asking the questions.
This has little to do with quests for belief. It has more to do with the arguments as armies concept. This is an important point. Please don’t dismiss it without thinking about it.
The appropriate way to ask the question is to ask for details about how God is showing up and act enthusiastic. “Every time? Wow! How do you know? Does this happen at other worship services? Has it always happened here? Does he show up stronger at some than others? Which ones are the best? Does he say anything to you?”
If this sounds silly to you, than you aren’t getting it.
If you bring in an CO2 meter and expect to find God you will be called crazy by the people who believe in him. This is completely different than the dragon-in-the-garage example.
Prayer is the best example were I have seen Christians start getting frustrated. Not because they are coming up with excuses, but because they don’t understand why it isn’t working. The people I know actually expect something. If I were to ask them if we could see a statistical difference in a study on the effects of prayer they would answer, “Of course!” The problem with these people is that when the results come back negative they will start explaining away the numbers. If, later, you go back and try the same trick they will just repeat the explanations they used last time.
People who answer, “No.” are more likely to be praying without thinking it will actually work. They are praying for religious purposes.
Not that I’m saying that religious people don’t do this. If you can provide an example that would be great.
Prayer is the best example were I have seen Christians start getting frustrated. Not because they are coming up with excuses, but because they don’t understand why it isn’t working.
I have close friends who are religious, and something that always struck me as both odd and tragic is how they treat their prayers vs. the prayers of others.
When someone else laments that their prayers have not been answered, they reassure them and encourage them to continue praying.
When their own prayers are not answered, they get frustrated and worry that somehow they’re failing God and that they don’t deserve to have their prayers answered.
For others, they act like no excuse is necessary (“God has a plan”), but for themselves they look for one (“I’ve been lax in my faith”).
This is good evidence for the “belief in belief” theory, but is kind of a bummer to think about (How would you feel if you knew the person reassuring you about your prayers actually had the same frustration as you?).
What’s even more of a bummer is how often priests/pastors/etc. get asked “Why does God talk to everyone but me?”
For others, they act like no excuse is necessary (“God has a plan”), but for themselves they look for one (“I’ve been lax in my faith”).
The explanation is that they are just trying to make their friend feel better. You cannot make yourself feel better with the same trick because you know you are secretly condemning your friend for being lax in their faith. You could deny that, I suppose, but I see this more as hypocritical than anything else.
Also, this is significantly more common in certain denominations than others. Some denominations have entire books that solely address this problem.
I don’t think that the people I know are secretly condemning their friends for being lax in their faith. It’s like they feel constant guilt, and don’t identify their bad situations as caused by the same things other peoples’ bad situations are.
Kind of like chalking someone else’s bad behavior up to character flaws but your own to bad circumstances.
Your point about certain denominations is well taken; my friends are almost exclusively one.
You have to realize that “evidence or tests” does not mean the same thing to them as it does to you. They have been conditioned against these words.
I use different language if I’m talking to a theist. Usually I ask something like, “Do you think prayer works?” They say, “Yes.” I say, “So if there was a group of people with some disease, we should expect those who were prayed for to be more likely to get better, right?” The conversation branches here. Either they say, “No” because they know about the studies that have been done, or they say, “Yes,” I mention the studies, and they say something about how you can’t put God to the test.
This is completely different than the dragon-in-the-garage example.
No it is not. Their reaction is more emotionally charged than in the dragon example. The theists have a belief but anticipations guided by not-belief.
Another example: One of my friends is studying to be a Catholic priest. He believes in evolution. Of course I couldn’t help but ask him if he thought (non-human) animals went to heaven. He said no. “Ah-ha!” I thought, “The trap is set!”
Me: “So there had to be some point in evolution where two hairy proto-humans gave birth to a slightly less hairy human. Even though they only differed from each other as much as we differ from our parents, the proto-human parents didn’t have souls and the child did. If the child went to heaven, he would ask God where his parents went.
Friend: “Yes.”
Me: o_O
Well at least he was consistent. Later I asked him about the efficacy of prayer and he said it worked as long as you weren’t doing a test to see if it worked. How convenient.
ETA: Oh and he doesn’t think cryonics will work since the soul leaves the body at death. Also he believes strong AI is impossible.
Later I asked him about the efficacy of prayer and he said it worked as long as you weren’t doing a test to see if it worked. How convenient.
This is the best example I have seen yet, but I am still not convinced that the problem is with anticipations not being guided by beliefs. He still anticipates something but is willing to amend the wrong side of the experiment when something goes weird.
But yeah, this is a much clearer example. I can think of a bunch of people I know who act like this.
The rest of this comment is nitpicking over something only slightly related.
I say, “So if there was a group of people with some disease, we should expect those who were prayed for to be more likely to get better, right?”
This sentence will trigger the conditioning I was talking about. This is the exact wrong way to talk to someone about the subject.
Either they say, “No” because they know about the studies that have been done, or they say, “Yes,” I mention the studies, and they say something about how you can’t put God to the test.
No it is not [different from the dragon example]. Their reaction is more emotionally charged than in the dragon example. The theists have a belief but anticipations guided by not-belief.
Those who say “No” because they know about the studies are not like the dragon example. They would have to say no before they knew about the studies. And, included in “studies,” this means every single failed prayer from their own life.
If you found someone who had absolutely no good reason to doubt prayer they would expect the studies to show prayer works. A pre-dodge of the experiment is much more likely to point to previous encounters with experiments than anticipations hooked up to not-beliefs.
Those who say “Yes” are now amending their belief to fit the facts. This is not like the dragon example.
Another example: One of my friends is studying to be a Catholic priest. He believes in evolution. Of course I couldn’t help but ask him if he thought (non-human) animals went to heaven. He said no. “Ah-ha!” I thought, “The trap is set!”
Stop trying to trap people. It is petty, rude, and just makes the world worse. Most people, even theists, are willing to talk about their beliefs if they don’t feel defensive. People can smell a trap coming as soon as they see someone’s face. As soon as they get defensive, the conversation becomes a war. This is bad.
Me: “So there had to be some point in evolution where two hairy proto-humans gave birth to a slightly less hairy human. Even though they only differed from each other as much as we differ from our parents, the proto-human parents didn’t have souls and the child did. If the child went to heaven, he would ask God where his parents went.
Friend: “Yes.”
Me: o_O
Really, the fact that you seem so surprised by this answer makes me think you have no idea what your friend believes. When your predictors to answers about technical questions are off enough to make you go o_O you may want to start looking at your predictors.
Sigh. I am sorry for jumping at you. I don’t really have a good excuse, but I am sorry anyway.
Stop trying to trap people. It is petty, rude, and just makes the world worse.
But it’s fun! At least it’s fun between friends. Remember that my friend got the last laugh in my trap example. We both know we’re not going to convince each other, but it’s still fun to play argument chess.
Just to balance things out, I’ll give you an example of a trap my friend set for me.
Me: (Starts to explain transhumanism. Quotes EY saying, “Life is good, death is bad. Health is good, sickness is bad.” etc)
Friend: “If life is good and death is bad, then isn’t suicide wrong in your view?”
Me: “Umm… I guess that’s a bit of an edge case.”
On reflection, I do now wonder if it’s better to modify someone’s mind so that they are no longer suicidal than let them kill themselves. After all, death is a much bigger change than a few erased memories.
Sorry, I forgot about the difference between explaining away misconceptions about religious belief/practice and speaking in a descriptive positive way about them. I (try to remember to) self-censor the latter.
99% of the people I know are religious. This isn’t an exaggeration. I can think of 2 or 3 that aren’t. (This doesn’t count online interactions.)
So… I guess I will just repeat what I said earlier. I’ve never met anyone who acted like this and wasn’t blatantly lying.
You have to realize that “evidence or tests” does not mean the same thing to them as it does to you. They have been conditioned against these words. If the belief is something as vague as, “God will show up during worship.” you cannot ask the phrase, “What evidence do you have for this?” This puts them on an immediate defensive because they are used to jerks asking the questions.
This has little to do with quests for belief. It has more to do with the arguments as armies concept. This is an important point. Please don’t dismiss it without thinking about it.
The appropriate way to ask the question is to ask for details about how God is showing up and act enthusiastic. “Every time? Wow! How do you know? Does this happen at other worship services? Has it always happened here? Does he show up stronger at some than others? Which ones are the best? Does he say anything to you?”
If this sounds silly to you, than you aren’t getting it.
If you bring in an CO2 meter and expect to find God you will be called crazy by the people who believe in him. This is completely different than the dragon-in-the-garage example.
Prayer is the best example were I have seen Christians start getting frustrated. Not because they are coming up with excuses, but because they don’t understand why it isn’t working. The people I know actually expect something. If I were to ask them if we could see a statistical difference in a study on the effects of prayer they would answer, “Of course!” The problem with these people is that when the results come back negative they will start explaining away the numbers. If, later, you go back and try the same trick they will just repeat the explanations they used last time.
People who answer, “No.” are more likely to be praying without thinking it will actually work. They are praying for religious purposes.
Not that I’m saying that religious people don’t do this. If you can provide an example that would be great.
I have close friends who are religious, and something that always struck me as both odd and tragic is how they treat their prayers vs. the prayers of others.
When someone else laments that their prayers have not been answered, they reassure them and encourage them to continue praying.
When their own prayers are not answered, they get frustrated and worry that somehow they’re failing God and that they don’t deserve to have their prayers answered.
For others, they act like no excuse is necessary (“God has a plan”), but for themselves they look for one (“I’ve been lax in my faith”).
This is good evidence for the “belief in belief” theory, but is kind of a bummer to think about (How would you feel if you knew the person reassuring you about your prayers actually had the same frustration as you?).
What’s even more of a bummer is how often priests/pastors/etc. get asked “Why does God talk to everyone but me?”
The explanation is that they are just trying to make their friend feel better. You cannot make yourself feel better with the same trick because you know you are secretly condemning your friend for being lax in their faith. You could deny that, I suppose, but I see this more as hypocritical than anything else.
Also, this is significantly more common in certain denominations than others. Some denominations have entire books that solely address this problem.
I don’t think that the people I know are secretly condemning their friends for being lax in their faith. It’s like they feel constant guilt, and don’t identify their bad situations as caused by the same things other peoples’ bad situations are.
Kind of like chalking someone else’s bad behavior up to character flaws but your own to bad circumstances.
Your point about certain denominations is well taken; my friends are almost exclusively one.
I use different language if I’m talking to a theist. Usually I ask something like, “Do you think prayer works?” They say, “Yes.” I say, “So if there was a group of people with some disease, we should expect those who were prayed for to be more likely to get better, right?” The conversation branches here. Either they say, “No” because they know about the studies that have been done, or they say, “Yes,” I mention the studies, and they say something about how you can’t put God to the test.
No it is not. Their reaction is more emotionally charged than in the dragon example. The theists have a belief but anticipations guided by not-belief.
Another example: One of my friends is studying to be a Catholic priest. He believes in evolution. Of course I couldn’t help but ask him if he thought (non-human) animals went to heaven. He said no. “Ah-ha!” I thought, “The trap is set!”
Me: “So there had to be some point in evolution where two hairy proto-humans gave birth to a slightly less hairy human. Even though they only differed from each other as much as we differ from our parents, the proto-human parents didn’t have souls and the child did. If the child went to heaven, he would ask God where his parents went.
Friend: “Yes.”
Me: o_O
Well at least he was consistent. Later I asked him about the efficacy of prayer and he said it worked as long as you weren’t doing a test to see if it worked. How convenient.
ETA: Oh and he doesn’t think cryonics will work since the soul leaves the body at death. Also he believes strong AI is impossible.
This is the best example I have seen yet, but I am still not convinced that the problem is with anticipations not being guided by beliefs. He still anticipates something but is willing to amend the wrong side of the experiment when something goes weird.
But yeah, this is a much clearer example. I can think of a bunch of people I know who act like this.
The rest of this comment is nitpicking over something only slightly related.
This sentence will trigger the conditioning I was talking about. This is the exact wrong way to talk to someone about the subject.
Those who say “No” because they know about the studies are not like the dragon example. They would have to say no before they knew about the studies. And, included in “studies,” this means every single failed prayer from their own life.
If you found someone who had absolutely no good reason to doubt prayer they would expect the studies to show prayer works. A pre-dodge of the experiment is much more likely to point to previous encounters with experiments than anticipations hooked up to not-beliefs.
Those who say “Yes” are now amending their belief to fit the facts. This is not like the dragon example.
Stop trying to trap people. It is petty, rude, and just makes the world worse. Most people, even theists, are willing to talk about their beliefs if they don’t feel defensive. People can smell a trap coming as soon as they see someone’s face. As soon as they get defensive, the conversation becomes a war. This is bad.
Really, the fact that you seem so surprised by this answer makes me think you have no idea what your friend believes. When your predictors to answers about technical questions are off enough to make you go o_O you may want to start looking at your predictors.
Sigh. I am sorry for jumping at you. I don’t really have a good excuse, but I am sorry anyway.
But it’s fun! At least it’s fun between friends. Remember that my friend got the last laugh in my trap example. We both know we’re not going to convince each other, but it’s still fun to play argument chess.
Just to balance things out, I’ll give you an example of a trap my friend set for me.
Me: (Starts to explain transhumanism. Quotes EY saying, “Life is good, death is bad. Health is good, sickness is bad.” etc)
Friend: “If life is good and death is bad, then isn’t suicide wrong in your view?”
Me: “Umm… I guess that’s a bit of an edge case.”
On reflection, I do now wonder if it’s better to modify someone’s mind so that they are no longer suicidal than let them kill themselves. After all, death is a much bigger change than a few erased memories.
[Deleted]
Sorry, I forgot about the difference between explaining away misconceptions about religious belief/practice and speaking in a descriptive positive way about them. I (try to remember to) self-censor the latter.