Damn! That’s exactly the kind of vague advice that HughRistik decries.
I wasn’t trying to communicate a thoroughly systematic method for acquiring social skills, so I confess that this phrase may have been a bit vague.
That said, it’s English, not a formal language. “Just get out of the house” does not mean, “position yourself in some location X such that X is not a member of the subset of locations within your house.”
The expression means that one should get out of the house and go to places that are conducive to some form of social interaction. Appropriate places vary tremendously from person to person, which is why the phrase is so non-specific. But if you pick some social event or scene where there are likely to be people vaguely similar to you, and you keep going to these events, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll meet interesting people and get better at socializing generally, if you need work at that. Hell, as long as you pick some social event where you don’t actually have contempt for everyone there, and you keep going out even after things go poorly, you’re probably going to do OK.
You can’t expect to be a great skier the first time you hit the slopes, and if you give up because you’re falling too much, you’ll never even be a competent skier. You can’t expect to have decent social skills if you don’t make a sincere effort to socialize. I understand that, in some cases, people sincerely try, deal with falling down a lot, keep trying, and still fail. I admit I have no easy solution for that. But I think that’s a pretty small minority of cases. If I’m wrong about that, please correct me.
An additional concern is not being able to find women with compatible intellectual interests (I don’t mean having or not having specific interests but being interested and capable of thinking/talking about intellectual topics). Fortunately, there are dating sites. OkCupid seems to trend smart, but there are lots of others too. If you live near a good university, you can also attend evening special lectures and events of that sort that are heavily attended by graduate students. They often have a socializing aspect to them after the event.
I don’t live near a university (the local Christian college does not, IMHO, count). I’ve tried dating sites, but never had any luck with them. I tried a meeting of my local professional society, but I was one of three people under 50.
“But if you pick some social event or scene where there are likely to be people vaguely similar to you”
I suspect that for most of us, such scenes consist almost exclusively of dudes.
Can you give an example? More and more I get the impression I live in an entirely different world than some of the people here.
I met my wife in the college radio station. A couple I know met in the local philosophy club. Several couples I know met in gaming groups. Generally when I go to anime or RPG conventions, the gender ratio seems to be close to an even mix.
Indeed, the only sources I’ve found (not good ones) for M:tG tournament demographics refer to females as “not measurable”.
Which is odd to me because I’m pretty sure about half of the M:tG players I know are female. Though I don’t know anyone who doesn’t play with old cards, so it’s likely a very different demographic than tournament-goers.
The reason bars bore you, is probably that you lack the social skills.
Practice happens to be a way to develop skills.
It boils down to the fact that you aren’t willing to pay the price of experiencing some boredom to develop social skills.
It simply a silly constraint.
As Christian Szegedy wrote above, bars where there’s partner dancing such as Salsa, Swing or Tango are probably the best way.
You even have a lot of precedural stuff to keep your mind occupied (not feel boredom) when you concentrate on dancing stuff.
In some sense a lot of people feel that they need the procedural stuff to be able to train social skills without getting bored.
Freakonomics had a section where they came to the conclusion that good parenting isn’t about what actions a parent completes but about what kind of a person the parent happens to be.
Exposure to social interactions changes yourself. If you happen to lack social skills it means that you have to go out of your comfort zone.
It your choice whether you are willing to pay the price.
The reason bars bore you, is probably that you lack the social skills.
That seems like an odd hypothesis. “Bored” is not how I describe my emotional state when I’m engaging in some activity for which I lack skill.
For my part, I find bars boring because there’s nothing entertaining to do there. I don’t even see how people have interesting social interactions in them; most bars I’ve been to have been very loud, and the people have been drinking excessively, such that one cannot even have an interesting conversation. But then, my hearing is terrible in loud places, so YMMV.
If you lack good social skills the amount you talk while you are in bars is lower than it would be if you have good skills.
If you talk less there’s more time to be bored.
If you dance more you are also less likely to be bored.
I doubt many people here find talking inherently interesting. The topic has to be engaging too, and the overwhelming majority of people in bars don’t allow for that.
It’s been a while since I wrote the post. But the main point was that if you want to improve skills it’s usually helpful to engage in activities that bore you or are in some other way uncomfortable.
The reason bars bore you, is probably that you lack the social skills. Practice happens to be a way to develop skills.
Not the grandparent commenter, but bars bore me because I don’t find socializing with strangers in a bar setting to be particularly interesting. For me, it’d be like riding a unicycle—something I don’t know how to do, but I can tell I wouldn’t enjoy that much anyway
I’ve had some success at meeting people and having conversations with them. On the other hand, anime conventions are bad for meeting someone you hope to see a second time, because, chances are, the person you’re talking to lives in another state or something.
anime conventions are bad for meeting someone you hope to see a second time
Look for small, local conventions—they’re often hosted by universities. There might be one in your area. Of course, those have a tendency to foom if they’re any good (like Connecticon), so it’s a moving target.
I’m not sure this is good advice. Cons (and especially anime cons, which tend to skew a lot younger) depend on leading a lot of socially awkward people to talk to each other, and as such basically live or die by the skills of their organizers. If you’re restricting yourself to small local cons, and you’re not very lucky, you naturally get organizers who are either inexperienced or incompetent.
That’s tolerable if you already know a good chunk of the attendees. But if not, it’s hard to overestimate how bad this can go. When I last attended a similar con, for example, I met several people I immediately disliked, attracted one (1) stalker, and enjoyed the spectacle of an attendee being dragged out by the police after getting too handsy with his partner at a cosplay event. I did not meet anyone new that I’d have cared to meet again.
I wasn’t trying to communicate a thoroughly systematic method for acquiring social skills, so I confess that this phrase may have been a bit vague.
That said, it’s English, not a formal language. “Just get out of the house” does not mean, “position yourself in some location X such that X is not a member of the subset of locations within your house.”
The expression means that one should get out of the house and go to places that are conducive to some form of social interaction. Appropriate places vary tremendously from person to person, which is why the phrase is so non-specific. But if you pick some social event or scene where there are likely to be people vaguely similar to you, and you keep going to these events, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll meet interesting people and get better at socializing generally, if you need work at that. Hell, as long as you pick some social event where you don’t actually have contempt for everyone there, and you keep going out even after things go poorly, you’re probably going to do OK.
You can’t expect to be a great skier the first time you hit the slopes, and if you give up because you’re falling too much, you’ll never even be a competent skier. You can’t expect to have decent social skills if you don’t make a sincere effort to socialize. I understand that, in some cases, people sincerely try, deal with falling down a lot, keep trying, and still fail. I admit I have no easy solution for that. But I think that’s a pretty small minority of cases. If I’m wrong about that, please correct me.
“But if you pick some social event or scene where there are likely to be people vaguely similar to you”
I suspect that for most of us, such scenes consist almost exclusively of dudes.
I have trouble meeting women, and it’s due to three major constraints:
1) I’m not religious, so church is out.
2) Bars bore me.
3) I haven’t identified any other venues where a 30-something guy can approach women in a sociable context.
These constraints may be typical of the Less Wrong readership.
An additional concern is not being able to find women with compatible intellectual interests (I don’t mean having or not having specific interests but being interested and capable of thinking/talking about intellectual topics). Fortunately, there are dating sites. OkCupid seems to trend smart, but there are lots of others too. If you live near a good university, you can also attend evening special lectures and events of that sort that are heavily attended by graduate students. They often have a socializing aspect to them after the event.
I don’t live near a university (the local Christian college does not, IMHO, count). I’ve tried dating sites, but never had any luck with them. I tried a meeting of my local professional society, but I was one of three people under 50.
Science fiction fandom. In my (UK-based) experience, it contains substantial numbers of both sexes and all ages. And all body types, for that matter.
Can you give an example? More and more I get the impression I live in an entirely different world than some of the people here.
I met my wife in the college radio station. A couple I know met in the local philosophy club. Several couples I know met in gaming groups. Generally when I go to anime or RPG conventions, the gender ratio seems to be close to an even mix.
Magic: the Gathering tournaments are at least 90% male.
Indeed, the only sources I’ve found (not good ones) for M:tG tournament demographics refer to females as “not measurable”.
Which is odd to me because I’m pretty sure about half of the M:tG players I know are female. Though I don’t know anyone who doesn’t play with old cards, so it’s likely a very different demographic than tournament-goers.
The reason bars bore you, is probably that you lack the social skills. Practice happens to be a way to develop skills.
It boils down to the fact that you aren’t willing to pay the price of experiencing some boredom to develop social skills. It simply a silly constraint.
As Christian Szegedy wrote above, bars where there’s partner dancing such as Salsa, Swing or Tango are probably the best way.
You even have a lot of precedural stuff to keep your mind occupied (not feel boredom) when you concentrate on dancing stuff.
In some sense a lot of people feel that they need the procedural stuff to be able to train social skills without getting bored.
Freakonomics had a section where they came to the conclusion that good parenting isn’t about what actions a parent completes but about what kind of a person the parent happens to be.
Exposure to social interactions changes yourself. If you happen to lack social skills it means that you have to go out of your comfort zone. It your choice whether you are willing to pay the price.
That seems like an odd hypothesis. “Bored” is not how I describe my emotional state when I’m engaging in some activity for which I lack skill.
For my part, I find bars boring because there’s nothing entertaining to do there. I don’t even see how people have interesting social interactions in them; most bars I’ve been to have been very loud, and the people have been drinking excessively, such that one cannot even have an interesting conversation. But then, my hearing is terrible in loud places, so YMMV.
If you lack good social skills the amount you talk while you are in bars is lower than it would be if you have good skills. If you talk less there’s more time to be bored.
If you dance more you are also less likely to be bored.
I doubt many people here find talking inherently interesting. The topic has to be engaging too, and the overwhelming majority of people in bars don’t allow for that.
Well … huh. That’s a catch-22 for you, isn’t it?
(Yeah, you’re probably right. Although I guess the grandparent is the only one who can confirm this.)
It’s been a while since I wrote the post. But the main point was that if you want to improve skills it’s usually helpful to engage in activities that bore you or are in some other way uncomfortable.
Oh, indeed. I was just agreeing with that small section.
Not the grandparent commenter, but bars bore me because I don’t find socializing with strangers in a bar setting to be particularly interesting. For me, it’d be like riding a unicycle—something I don’t know how to do, but I can tell I wouldn’t enjoy that much anyway
What about going there with people you already know?
If I want to spend time with them, a bar is far from the optimal place to do it.
The post you quote doesn’t advocate going there for the purpose of enjoyment but to achieve secondary objectives.
If you have a goal, and path A to the goal is boring, that doesn’t mean that going down path A is automatically out of question.
You might find a better path than A, but if A is the only thing you are left with, go down A even if it’s boring if it brings you towards your goal.
I’ve had some success at meeting people and having conversations with them. On the other hand, anime conventions are bad for meeting someone you hope to see a second time, because, chances are, the person you’re talking to lives in another state or something.
Look for small, local conventions—they’re often hosted by universities. There might be one in your area. Of course, those have a tendency to foom if they’re any good (like Connecticon), so it’s a moving target.
I’m not sure this is good advice. Cons (and especially anime cons, which tend to skew a lot younger) depend on leading a lot of socially awkward people to talk to each other, and as such basically live or die by the skills of their organizers. If you’re restricting yourself to small local cons, and you’re not very lucky, you naturally get organizers who are either inexperienced or incompetent.
That’s tolerable if you already know a good chunk of the attendees. But if not, it’s hard to overestimate how bad this can go. When I last attended a similar con, for example, I met several people I immediately disliked, attracted one (1) stalker, and enjoyed the spectacle of an attendee being dragged out by the police after getting too handsy with his partner at a cosplay event. I did not meet anyone new that I’d have cared to meet again.