those enabling them by responding to them should stop.
This seems to be the main problem, but my recent attempts to discourage those who make high-quality contributions to hopeless or malignant conversations didn’t stir much enthusiasm, so it’d probably take a lot of effort to change this.
(A specific suggestion I have is to establish a community norm of downvoting those participating in hopeless conversations, even if their contributions are high-quality.)
Please crack down earlier, harder, and more often.
This is something new for LW, in fact this appears to be the first time when a non-Eliezer moderator stepped forward to implement this measure (in this case prompted by Eliezer’s recent statement that deleting posts by a chronically downvoted user who doesn’t stop is to be considered a general policy).
This is the first time I’ve come across the suggestion to downvote well-thought-out contributions to silly conversations, actually, and I like it. I’ll keep that in mind.
A specific suggestion I have is to establish a community norm of downvoting those participating in hopeless conversations, even if their contributions are high-quality
How do you define “hopeless”, exactly ? Sometimes, a high-quality post in response to a troll’s or idiot’s thread can be quite helpful to other readers (and lurkers), who aren’t trolls or idiots, but who are just misinformed or new to the topic. I personally have been such a lurker on several sites, but I do acknowledge that my personal experience is not statistically significant.
Just a few reasons: Removing comments happens silently and without a trace. Such tools can be used by the establishment to quiet dissent. They can break existing conversations. We need more contrarians, not fewer. By removing examples of what not to do, we can no longer point at them as examples. Even if the comments were on the whole annoying, there might be interesting stuff in there worth responding to. Bans, more than downvotes, outright discourage participation amongst those who are in particular need of our help. Freedom of speech is valuable in itself, and its presence here is aesthetically pleasing.
The current procedure: (1) banning mode is only triggered by a user systematically accumulating some crazy amount of negative Karma quickly, (2) you get an explicit statement of banning-mode having been triggered, where others can appeal/discuss the decision, (3) you are free to continue participating if you somehow manage to produce the kind of comments that don’t get downvoted (so it’s more of a parole). In no other cases do the comments get banned.
Yes, and it’s carried out by Vladimir_Nesov and his ilk, which makes me not worry at all about the application in this particular case. I still needed to register my general objection, and I fear for our children’s children who might suffer under an oppressive fascist regime based on the Less Wrong moderation policy.
If this is where we are at, then please advise me of it so I can take appropriate steps to avoid getting banned.
I don’t think I got an explicit statement of banning mode having been triggered, but I want to be sure since there is talk of the ban hammer going down.
I am not trying to be contrary, I just am, so it comes out that way. I truly think that what I have to offer has merit. Of course, if the community does not think so then it is within their power to down vote me into non-existence. That is fair, as I have no right to force my ideas on another person. It just seemed that this would be a place to share ideas. Perhaps not.
The “statement of triggering the banning mode” is this. The steps to avoid triggering it (in your case, to get out of it) are here. This is the conversation where the procedure is getting established.
Removing comments happens silently and without a trace. Such tools can be used by the establishment to quiet dissent.
So let’s have a policy that banned commenters get to post a link to their anti-LW blog. We could list all the anti-LW blogs on a wiki page or something.
They can break existing conversations.
By removing examples of what not to do, we can no longer point at them as examples.
I don’t think anyone is proposing to delete past comments.
We need more contrarians, not fewer.
If I promise to be a high-quality contrarian, can we ban the next five low-quality contrarians?
discourage participation amongst those who are in particular need of our help
This is a good thing. LW’s positive impact is likely to lie mostly in building an effective movement, figuring out what issues are important, and pushing on those issues; all of these are helped by a high average level of rationality. LW’s positive impact is unlikely to lie in trying to fix whatever hopeless cases wander by.
Freedom of speech is valuable in itself, and its presence here is aesthetically pleasing.
I disagree on both counts, and I suspect your other arguments may be rationalizations springing from this value judgement.
I’m generally in favor of more contrarians on LW, but a commenter who rejects empiricism across the board and cannot make any comments trying to understand the arguments in favor of empiricism adds no value here—especially if rejecting empiricism is all he is willing to talk about AND his comments dominate the sidebar for days.
In short, banning is a reasonable measure in this case. That said, I agree with your general points below.
...but a commenter who rejects empiricism across the board and cannot make any comments trying to understand the arguments in favor of empiricism adds no value here...
You are probably right about this particular case, but I’d hesitate to generalize it to all possible cases. I personally would find it quite interesting to engage in conversation (or debate) with a staunch anti-empiricist, assuming such a thing was even possible. I have talked to a few anti-empiricists before, and I find their position fascinating… listening to them feels like getting a glimpse of an utterly alien mind.
If you’ll start a discussion topic or a thread somewhere on the issue, I’ll argue against empiricism. We should trade understandings of what we take empiricism to be first though. Let me know if you’re game.
I’m totally game, but I am unskilled in the ways of LW. How do I “start a discussion topic” ? I thought that discussion topics had to be full-fledged articles, according to LW etiquette. I could probably sum up my position in a few bullet points, but I don’t think I have a full article’s worth of material.
But I could be overthinking the whole deal, let me know if that’s the case.
Alternatively, y’all could just have this conversation offline, via email or PM. If it turns out to be valuable, you could turn the conversation into an article.
I guess you could start an article in the discussion section? I don’t know the etiquette very well here either.
The empiricist claim that I would attack is one which says something like this: we have two ways of coming to know something. First, we come to know things by making inferences from other things we already know, and second we come to know things by direct experience of them. The second way, direct experience, is of something like sense-data. At root, everything else we come to know, we come to know by way of sense-data, and our access to sense-data is independent of whatever we infer from it.
That’s the view that I’d attack. I think any theory of empiricism weaker than that isn’t really distinctively empiricist, or distinguishable from, say, many versions of coherentism. But I’d be willing to debate that too.
That sounds like a good starting point to me. We could discuss this via PM, as TheOtherDave suggested; this way, if our discussion turns out to be nothing but noise, we would at least spare the other LWers the aggravation. Alternatively, I could create a discussion post containing the above paragraph, and my response, and we could go from there.
Both of these approaches sound good to me, so let me know what you want to do and I’ll get crackin’… by which I mean, I will write up a response when I have time :-/
This seems to be the main problem, but my recent attempts to discourage those who make high-quality contributions to hopeless or malignant conversations didn’t stir much enthusiasm, so it’d probably take a lot of effort to change this.
(A specific suggestion I have is to establish a community norm of downvoting those participating in hopeless conversations, even if their contributions are high-quality.)
This is something new for LW, in fact this appears to be the first time when a non-Eliezer moderator stepped forward to implement this measure (in this case prompted by Eliezer’s recent statement that deleting posts by a chronically downvoted user who doesn’t stop is to be considered a general policy).
FWIW, you brought me around on this point.
This is the first time I’ve come across the suggestion to downvote well-thought-out contributions to silly conversations, actually, and I like it. I’ll keep that in mind.
How do you define “hopeless”, exactly ? Sometimes, a high-quality post in response to a troll’s or idiot’s thread can be quite helpful to other readers (and lurkers), who aren’t trolls or idiots, but who are just misinformed or new to the topic. I personally have been such a lurker on several sites, but I do acknowledge that my personal experience is not statistically significant.
I generally regard it as a norm that one should not respond to trolls and the like.
But I ignore that norm when I see the opportunity to help someone.
I’m generally against ban-level measures, as such measures are very damaging and the comments don’t seem particularly so.
Why?
Just a few reasons: Removing comments happens silently and without a trace. Such tools can be used by the establishment to quiet dissent. They can break existing conversations. We need more contrarians, not fewer. By removing examples of what not to do, we can no longer point at them as examples. Even if the comments were on the whole annoying, there might be interesting stuff in there worth responding to. Bans, more than downvotes, outright discourage participation amongst those who are in particular need of our help. Freedom of speech is valuable in itself, and its presence here is aesthetically pleasing.
The current procedure: (1) banning mode is only triggered by a user systematically accumulating some crazy amount of negative Karma quickly, (2) you get an explicit statement of banning-mode having been triggered, where others can appeal/discuss the decision, (3) you are free to continue participating if you somehow manage to produce the kind of comments that don’t get downvoted (so it’s more of a parole). In no other cases do the comments get banned.
Yes, and it’s carried out by Vladimir_Nesov and his ilk, which makes me not worry at all about the application in this particular case. I still needed to register my general objection, and I fear for our children’s children who might suffer under an oppressive fascist regime based on the Less Wrong moderation policy.
Oh, there’s no need to fear that: LWers don’t have children.
Upvoted for sheer hubris alone.
If this is where we are at, then please advise me of it so I can take appropriate steps to avoid getting banned. I don’t think I got an explicit statement of banning mode having been triggered, but I want to be sure since there is talk of the ban hammer going down.
I am not trying to be contrary, I just am, so it comes out that way. I truly think that what I have to offer has merit. Of course, if the community does not think so then it is within their power to down vote me into non-existence. That is fair, as I have no right to force my ideas on another person. It just seemed that this would be a place to share ideas. Perhaps not.
The “statement of triggering the banning mode” is this. The steps to avoid triggering it (in your case, to get out of it) are here. This is the conversation where the procedure is getting established.
So let’s have a policy that banned commenters get to post a link to their anti-LW blog. We could list all the anti-LW blogs on a wiki page or something.
I don’t think anyone is proposing to delete past comments.
If I promise to be a high-quality contrarian, can we ban the next five low-quality contrarians?
This is a good thing. LW’s positive impact is likely to lie mostly in building an effective movement, figuring out what issues are important, and pushing on those issues; all of these are helped by a high average level of rationality. LW’s positive impact is unlikely to lie in trying to fix whatever hopeless cases wander by.
I disagree on both counts, and I suspect your other arguments may be rationalizations springing from this value judgement.
I’m generally in favor of more contrarians on LW, but a commenter who rejects empiricism across the board and cannot make any comments trying to understand the arguments in favor of empiricism adds no value here—especially if rejecting empiricism is all he is willing to talk about AND his comments dominate the sidebar for days.
In short, banning is a reasonable measure in this case. That said, I agree with your general points below.
You are probably right about this particular case, but I’d hesitate to generalize it to all possible cases. I personally would find it quite interesting to engage in conversation (or debate) with a staunch anti-empiricist, assuming such a thing was even possible. I have talked to a few anti-empiricists before, and I find their position fascinating… listening to them feels like getting a glimpse of an utterly alien mind.
If you’ll start a discussion topic or a thread somewhere on the issue, I’ll argue against empiricism. We should trade understandings of what we take empiricism to be first though. Let me know if you’re game.
I’m totally game, but I am unskilled in the ways of LW. How do I “start a discussion topic” ? I thought that discussion topics had to be full-fledged articles, according to LW etiquette. I could probably sum up my position in a few bullet points, but I don’t think I have a full article’s worth of material.
But I could be overthinking the whole deal, let me know if that’s the case.
Alternatively, y’all could just have this conversation offline, via email or PM. If it turns out to be valuable, you could turn the conversation into an article.
I guess you could start an article in the discussion section? I don’t know the etiquette very well here either.
The empiricist claim that I would attack is one which says something like this: we have two ways of coming to know something. First, we come to know things by making inferences from other things we already know, and second we come to know things by direct experience of them. The second way, direct experience, is of something like sense-data. At root, everything else we come to know, we come to know by way of sense-data, and our access to sense-data is independent of whatever we infer from it.
That’s the view that I’d attack. I think any theory of empiricism weaker than that isn’t really distinctively empiricist, or distinguishable from, say, many versions of coherentism. But I’d be willing to debate that too.
That sounds like a good starting point to me. We could discuss this via PM, as TheOtherDave suggested; this way, if our discussion turns out to be nothing but noise, we would at least spare the other LWers the aggravation. Alternatively, I could create a discussion post containing the above paragraph, and my response, and we could go from there.
Both of these approaches sound good to me, so let me know what you want to do and I’ll get crackin’… by which I mean, I will write up a response when I have time :-/