I’ve never had the experience of thinking that a saw the pattern and being wrong.
Most Less Wrong readers’ performance on Raven’s Matrices would be between 2 SD and 3 SD above the mean, and I’d guess that the threshold for seeing the pattern in this particular item is in the same range. Rapidity with which one sees the answer probably gives incremental predictive power, but I’d guess that the improvement in predictive power would be much less than the improvement coming from testing untimed performance on more difficult items.
Most Less Wrong readers’ performance on Raven’s Matrices would be between 2 SD and 3 SD above the mean
We asked people to take a Raven’s Matrices IQ test on previous surveys, like the 2012 survey. According to one of my old comments, LWers with positive karma averaged 127 on the test, somewhat below 2 SDs above the mean. I suspect that’s inflated by nonresponse.
There were questions about whether or not the Raven’s was a good IQ test to be using, as many people thought the version hosted on iqtest.dk underestimated their IQ, and it was not included on later surveys.
I’m pretty sure that the the issue is with the conversion between performance on the iqtest.dk test and score. My best guess is that they’re determining percentiles relative to other test takers, and that people who spend time taking IQ tests online are unrepresentatively high IQ.
My best guess is that they’re determining percentiles relative to other test takers, and that people who spend time taking IQ tests online are unrepresentatively high IQ.
I think this is likely; I seem to recall iqtest.dk saying something to that effect. Given the various reporting biases involved, though, I’m unwilling to jump immediately to that as a conclusion. I recall the Raven’s numbers being lower than what you would expect given the SAT numbers, but being closer to the SAT numbers than the self-reported IQ numbers, which were higher than you would expect from the SAT numbers.
That is, even if I agree with your prior that LWers do better on Raven’s than on other tests, observing LWers doing worse on a Raven’s test than other tests should reduce my confidence in that, rather than me just using the prior to adjust the evidence to agree with it. (Administering a properly normed test, of course, would screen off the improperly normed test.)
I got the answer in under 2 minutes (didn’t time it exactly). However, when I first identified my answer candidate (answer 2), it was probably about two thirds of the way in. I got the correct answer by going across at first, but then spent additional time double checking my work using columns, and then double checking my answer before “committing”.
I’ve taken a couple of online Raven’s Matrices type tests in the past, but that was a while ago, so I don’t believe memory played too much of a role. However, I seem to have internalized the idea that IQ tests are trying to bait you with obvious answers, and as a result, I end up taking too long double checking my work.
I suppose the only way to get over this lack of confidence in my intuition is with practice, but I’m wary of diluting the feedback I get from the occasional IQ test due to the ‘practice effect’.
It’s a bit of a catch-22. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
The replies to my query suggest a bit of concern that I’m be placing too much value on IQ tests, which to be honest is not quite true. I’ve never actually taken a formal IQ test and don’t actually know my IQ score. It’s really not a big concern to me, though I do believe I’m smarter than average, but then again, most people think that too.
However, to answer your question,it’s just my personality—I like to optimize stuff. It doesn’t matter what it is, if I recognize that there’s a slightly more efficient way to do something, I want to learn it and do it better. It can be as simple as someone throwing a crumbled paper into a recycling bin from a few feet away, if I notice someone is able to do that slightly more efficiently than the way I’m doing it and with better results, then I get really curious and determined to figure out how to optimize my own shots.
So, along that same thread, I noticed inefficiencies in my IQ test taking skills (as I outlined in my original question), which prompted me to query you guys for any tips for improvement.
And in response to shminux and Ilya’s concerns, this personality trait of mine is actually quite healthy and a valued asset, it’s the reason why I did well academically and am doing well in my career, so nothing to worry about!
So, along that same thread, I noticed inefficiencies in my IQ test taking skills (as I outlined in my original question), which prompted me to query you guys for any tips for improvement.
… but a key point of my post is that context-free abstract pattern recognition ability is innate and can’t be learned :-). You can learn how to answer standard Raven’s matrices type questions, by learning patterns used to construct the items, but the skills built aren’t transferable – if given a different kind of test of context-free abstract pattern recognition ability, you would do no better than you would now. It is possible to improve a great deal as a mathematical thinker, but trying to build this sort of skill is not the way to do it.
“Context-free abstract pattern recognition” can be partially resolved into more legible subcomponents, some of which can be learned, and some of which can’t.
So working memory is one such component, and is often theorized as a big pathway for (intuitively defined) general human intelligence. It doesn’t look you can train working memory in a way that generalizes to increased performance on all tasks that involve working memory (although there’s some controversy about this). And as with other traits, increased performance on formal measurements of working memory might not translate to the real-world outcomes associated with higher untrained working memory.
At the same time, it seems that the universe must come packaged with a distribution over patterns, and so learning a few common patterns might transfer fairly well. The Raven pattern is XOR, a basic boolean function. The continued fraction is self-similarity, which is an interesting pattern (meta-pattern?), because while people already recognize trivial self-similarity (invariance, repetition), it look like people can be successfully taught to look for more complicated recurrences in math and CS classes.
I appreciate your response, but I think you’re forgetting my original question.
I got the answer in under 2 minutes (didn’t time it exactly). However, when I first identified my answer candidate (answer 2), it was probably about two thirds of the way in. I got the correct answer by going across at first, but then spent additional time double checking my work using columns, and then double checking my answer before “committing”.
I got the answer correctly and in under 2 minutes. I saw the pattern relatively effortlessly, but was only inquiring as to how to optimize the speed by fixing my “hesitation” to commit to the answer until I’ve double-checked it and ruled out any bait answers as well.
Not buying anything, just trying to satisfy my desire to optimize any skill I have (Raven’s matrices, crumbled paper basketball, driving, how to hold a pen, or any other skill).
See my previous answers to JonahSinick for more details.
Echoing Ilya here. IQ tests are a rough guide of what’s possible to achieve, not a predictor of success and satisfaction in life. Like height is a rough guide of what’s possible to achieve in basketball. If you are 5′10″, NBA is probably not for you. If your IQ tests keep returning under 120, you will probably not be an MIT prof. Unless you have some exceptional abilities not captured by these simple tests. Find something at you enjoy doing AND are very good at, and work on it. It’ll pay.
I’ve never had the experience of thinking that a saw the pattern and being wrong.
Most Less Wrong readers’ performance on Raven’s Matrices would be between 2 SD and 3 SD above the mean, and I’d guess that the threshold for seeing the pattern in this particular item is in the same range. Rapidity with which one sees the answer probably gives incremental predictive power, but I’d guess that the improvement in predictive power would be much less than the improvement coming from testing untimed performance on more difficult items.
We asked people to take a Raven’s Matrices IQ test on previous surveys, like the 2012 survey. According to one of my old comments, LWers with positive karma averaged 127 on the test, somewhat below 2 SDs above the mean. I suspect that’s inflated by nonresponse.
There were questions about whether or not the Raven’s was a good IQ test to be using, as many people thought the version hosted on iqtest.dk underestimated their IQ, and it was not included on later surveys.
I’m pretty sure that the the issue is with the conversion between performance on the iqtest.dk test and score. My best guess is that they’re determining percentiles relative to other test takers, and that people who spend time taking IQ tests online are unrepresentatively high IQ.
I think this is likely; I seem to recall iqtest.dk saying something to that effect. Given the various reporting biases involved, though, I’m unwilling to jump immediately to that as a conclusion. I recall the Raven’s numbers being lower than what you would expect given the SAT numbers, but being closer to the SAT numbers than the self-reported IQ numbers, which were higher than you would expect from the SAT numbers.
That is, even if I agree with your prior that LWers do better on Raven’s than on other tests, observing LWers doing worse on a Raven’s test than other tests should reduce my confidence in that, rather than me just using the prior to adjust the evidence to agree with it. (Administering a properly normed test, of course, would screen off the improperly normed test.)
I got the answer in under 2 minutes (didn’t time it exactly). However, when I first identified my answer candidate (answer 2), it was probably about two thirds of the way in. I got the correct answer by going across at first, but then spent additional time double checking my work using columns, and then double checking my answer before “committing”.
I’ve taken a couple of online Raven’s Matrices type tests in the past, but that was a while ago, so I don’t believe memory played too much of a role. However, I seem to have internalized the idea that IQ tests are trying to bait you with obvious answers, and as a result, I end up taking too long double checking my work.
I suppose the only way to get over this lack of confidence in my intuition is with practice, but I’m wary of diluting the feedback I get from the occasional IQ test due to the ‘practice effect’.
It’s a bit of a catch-22. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Don’t worry about IQ tests, just learn stuff you like, or be more like people that inspire you.
What are your goals?
The replies to my query suggest a bit of concern that I’m be placing too much value on IQ tests, which to be honest is not quite true. I’ve never actually taken a formal IQ test and don’t actually know my IQ score. It’s really not a big concern to me, though I do believe I’m smarter than average, but then again, most people think that too.
However, to answer your question,it’s just my personality—I like to optimize stuff. It doesn’t matter what it is, if I recognize that there’s a slightly more efficient way to do something, I want to learn it and do it better. It can be as simple as someone throwing a crumbled paper into a recycling bin from a few feet away, if I notice someone is able to do that slightly more efficiently than the way I’m doing it and with better results, then I get really curious and determined to figure out how to optimize my own shots.
So, along that same thread, I noticed inefficiencies in my IQ test taking skills (as I outlined in my original question), which prompted me to query you guys for any tips for improvement.
And in response to shminux and Ilya’s concerns, this personality trait of mine is actually quite healthy and a valued asset, it’s the reason why I did well academically and am doing well in my career, so nothing to worry about!
… but a key point of my post is that context-free abstract pattern recognition ability is innate and can’t be learned :-). You can learn how to answer standard Raven’s matrices type questions, by learning patterns used to construct the items, but the skills built aren’t transferable – if given a different kind of test of context-free abstract pattern recognition ability, you would do no better than you would now. It is possible to improve a great deal as a mathematical thinker, but trying to build this sort of skill is not the way to do it.
“Context-free abstract pattern recognition” can be partially resolved into more legible subcomponents, some of which can be learned, and some of which can’t.
So working memory is one such component, and is often theorized as a big pathway for (intuitively defined) general human intelligence. It doesn’t look you can train working memory in a way that generalizes to increased performance on all tasks that involve working memory (although there’s some controversy about this). And as with other traits, increased performance on formal measurements of working memory might not translate to the real-world outcomes associated with higher untrained working memory.
At the same time, it seems that the universe must come packaged with a distribution over patterns, and so learning a few common patterns might transfer fairly well. The Raven pattern is XOR, a basic boolean function. The continued fraction is self-similarity, which is an interesting pattern (meta-pattern?), because while people already recognize trivial self-similarity (invariance, repetition), it look like people can be successfully taught to look for more complicated recurrences in math and CS classes.
I appreciate your response, but I think you’re forgetting my original question.
I got the answer correctly and in under 2 minutes. I saw the pattern relatively effortlessly, but was only inquiring as to how to optimize the speed by fixing my “hesitation” to commit to the answer until I’ve double-checked it and ruled out any bait answers as well.
What are you trying to buy yourself by getting better at Raven’s matrices?
Not buying anything, just trying to satisfy my desire to optimize any skill I have (Raven’s matrices, crumbled paper basketball, driving, how to hold a pen, or any other skill).
See my previous answers to JonahSinick for more details.
Echoing Ilya here. IQ tests are a rough guide of what’s possible to achieve, not a predictor of success and satisfaction in life. Like height is a rough guide of what’s possible to achieve in basketball. If you are 5′10″, NBA is probably not for you. If your IQ tests keep returning under 120, you will probably not be an MIT prof. Unless you have some exceptional abilities not captured by these simple tests. Find something at you enjoy doing AND are very good at, and work on it. It’ll pay.
See my response to JonahSinick below